Stefka
Well-Known Member
Part of our nature is also being selfish, don´t care about other people and animals, care only about our families, make as many babies as possible, fight wars with other tribes and die.
What's the thrill of hunting?
- Thread starter nanoboy
- Start date
Part of our nature is also being selfish, don´t care about other people and animals, care only about our families, make as many babies as possible, fight wars with other tribes and die.
Tribesmen who hunt to survive are part of their natural environment. City slickers who venture into "wilderness" with shotguns are not part of the environment, they are intruding.
I have no problems with people who have to hunt to feed themselves and survive. I don't have much love for sport/trophy hunters; I can never understand why posing next to a dead animal is something to be proud of. Maybe if they do it without the guns, I might have a little more respect for the "sport".
I've said before on threads such as this one, that I don't have a problem with people who hunt. Hunting for food, fine by me. Hunting to eradicate or control pests, fine by me. I would even do both of those myself if it was called for. But trophy hunting is a mind-set I can't understand. I'm not one of those people who get all appalled by it, because so long as its not endangering any species then I don't see the problem, but I honestly can't understand the compulsion to kill an animal for no reason other than one's own ego (I know you'll protest about that Monty, but that is literally what it comes down to, mastery over the beast). Your reasoning above really doesn't hold water I'm afraid. I go out into the wilds fairly regularly looking for wildlife. I've seen babirusa, tapir, elephant, all sorts of amazing animals. I've had to basically do what hunters do to see a lot of these species, and yet I have never once felt the need to then complete my joy at seeing them by blowing their brains out!!Monty said:
nanoboy
Well-Known Member
Monty, everything can be explained. I don't need to kill an animal to understand the feeling. I think what you meant to say was that YOU cannot explain it very well, possibly for 2 reasons:
1. You don't want to come out and blatantly agree with Chlidonias (i.e. guilt, pride, shame etc)
2. You yourself don't understand why you like hunting
Now, the purpose of this thread was to try to get into the heads of hunters to try to understand why they do it - not to pass judgement.
Based on your explanation, it's the thrill of the chase rather than the kill and the trophy. My wife and I have spent many hours chasing wildlife, and we have even shot them for trophies - but our weapon was a camera. So I thoroughly understand the thrill. But what I really want to understand is why kill the animal - and no trophy hunter here has explained that yet. Is it a macho thing? Man must have dominion over animals and all that?
JBZvolunteer, I hear you about hunting for food and killing animals that kill your livestock. But to play devil's advocate, how many times have we read about villagers in developing countries killing tree-kangaroo for food, or shooting a snow leopard that had killed one of their sheep? I am sure you know the story of the Tasmanian tiger? I word that springs to my mind is "sustainability". Isn't there another way to solve the problems that do not result in the animals being killed?
I feed the neighbourhood cockatoos in my back porch. My neighbour complained that they wrecked his plants, chewed up his windows, and destroyed his lawn. He wanted to call the relevant department to report them as a pest and have them killed. But we found a solution: I bought him a fake cat with glass eyes that seemed to keep them away, and I told him to use his hose to spray them with water because they hated that and it was relatively harmless to them - problem solved. My point is, surely there are other ways?
1. You don't want to come out and blatantly agree with Chlidonias (i.e. guilt, pride, shame etc)
2. You yourself don't understand why you like hunting
Now, the purpose of this thread was to try to get into the heads of hunters to try to understand why they do it - not to pass judgement.
Based on your explanation, it's the thrill of the chase rather than the kill and the trophy. My wife and I have spent many hours chasing wildlife, and we have even shot them for trophies - but our weapon was a camera. So I thoroughly understand the thrill. But what I really want to understand is why kill the animal - and no trophy hunter here has explained that yet. Is it a macho thing? Man must have dominion over animals and all that?
JBZvolunteer, I hear you about hunting for food and killing animals that kill your livestock. But to play devil's advocate, how many times have we read about villagers in developing countries killing tree-kangaroo for food, or shooting a snow leopard that had killed one of their sheep? I am sure you know the story of the Tasmanian tiger? I word that springs to my mind is "sustainability". Isn't there another way to solve the problems that do not result in the animals being killed?
I feed the neighbourhood cockatoos in my back porch. My neighbour complained that they wrecked his plants, chewed up his windows, and destroyed his lawn. He wanted to call the relevant department to report them as a pest and have them killed. But we found a solution: I bought him a fake cat with glass eyes that seemed to keep them away, and I told him to use his hose to spray them with water because they hated that and it was relatively harmless to them - problem solved. My point is, surely there are other ways?
JBZvolunteer
Well-Known Member
We have never had to kill a coyote (the main worry) yet but, the reason why it is a main worry for us is we just started a heard and right now it only numbers two goats.
Also, about the whole killing of large predators, this in some ways can be beneficial. I know it may sound crazy but hear me out. My family hunts black bear. We only get a license about every 4 years. Since we have been hunting black bear we have noticed a increase in large predators. Since this has happened we have had sightings of a wolf pack and bald eagles on our property. Does this have anything to do with the increase? We don't know but still any area of land can only support so many large predators.
nanoboy
Well-Known Member
I think that you have tried to put forward an argument for one of the benefits of hunting, which is a bit shaky I think - the cause and effect logic is a bit flawed. However, that's besides the point, and not really the reason for me starting the thread. My interest is in the human psychology of hunting.
I am still trying to figure out WHY people do it. So, coyotes aside, WHY do you hunt black bears?
I think ive just read the most pitiful excuse to kill another animal,"its never about killing".. "Part of the enviroment"?...Napoleon complex comes to mind.
I did say unless you actually do it you wont understand. I think you may be anti hunting because you live in an urban environment and do not connect the meat you eat with a live animal being killed.
The US has one of the largest hunting populations with 10% of us men and 1% of women hunting each year. I have spent 2 years there and found almost everyone where I was understood hunting. I did try and avoid cities though.
The successful hunting culture of the US originated in the early 1900's when unregulated commercial and subsistence hunting reduced the White tail deer population to less than 500,000. The hunting regulations introduced then have been the base of all hunting is the US since. Those regulations and hunting culture allowed the White Tailed Deer population to increase to well over 20 million today.
Coming from NZ with also has a very strong hunting culture I am sure you have friends who hunt, an possibly go to BBQs where wild venison is served. I also get very upset with wasteful killing. I know of an incident where nearly 20 deer were shot and no meat was taken.
Foxes and cats though are a different matter. I think the satisfaction with killing those is the knowledge that you are removing a pest which will both help native wildlife numbers and improve income buy saving lambs.
Stefka
Well-Known Member
Yet? Are you planning to?
JBZvolunteer
Well-Known Member
Only if they come in our yard which is where they live.
Stefka
Well-Known Member
Where who lives? The "herd" of two goats? What kind of logic is that? How the hell are the coyotes supposed to know that they can´t go in there? It´s like putting a steak on you table and shoot you for trying to eat it!
You have to secure your livestock, not kill all the predators around!
I am sorry, Nanoboy, I know we were asked to keep our emotions in check, but that´s simply not always possible...
Stefka, Why do you value the like of a Coyote over all other animals. Coyotes have, like Kangaroos here, have expanded their numbers due to agriculture increasing their food supply and removing their competition. Coyotes kill many fawns and even adult deer, and would happily kill any pet goats. They dont kill humanely and will eat their prey while it is still alive.
I worked on a 10,000 acre ranch in Montana had had Coyotes kill calves and we killed Coyotes because of it.
You may just say it is natural though. Very little of what humans do is natural, except hunting. Your food is produced in an unnatural monoculture devoid of native species. The humane killing of a Coyote will save many other animals of inhumane deaths.
You may just say it is natural though. Very little of what humans do is natural, except hunting. Your food is produced in an unnatural monoculture devoid of native species. The humane killing of a Coyote will save many other animals of inhumane deaths.
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Stefka
Well-Known Member
I am sorry, I don´t follow your logic, Monty.
Coyote - wild animal, native to America
Goat - domesticated from the wild goats of Europe and Asia by humans, bred for meat, milk and other products.
And I am not saying you should allow the coyote to eat your goats, I am saying you shoud secure your livestock better.
And did you really write "pet goats"?
Coyote - wild animal, native to America
Goat - domesticated from the wild goats of Europe and Asia by humans, bred for meat, milk and other products.
And I am not saying you should allow the coyote to eat your goats, I am saying you shoud secure your livestock better.
And did you really write "pet goats"?
the purpose of this thread (if nanoboy doesn't mind me saying so) was to try and understand the mind-set of trophy hunters. Nobody has actually answered his question, namely why does a trophy hunter feel the need to kill an animal for no reason other than his or hers' own gratification at ending its life? The original purpose of the thread, unless I'm mistaken, was not about killing for food or killing to control pests which Monty (no offence) consistently introduces to the topic at hand when they are completely separate issues. It was about killing for no purpose. Nanoboy is from Australia and I'm sure he well understands the reasons why killing animals is necessary for conservation or farming purposes.
nanoboy
Well-Known Member
Well put. Yes, I totally understand the need to remove/eradicate/kill/hunt (choose whichever word suits) animals like foxes and feral pigs. A trophy hunter would be doing native wildlife a service in most cases.
I didn't post a response to Monty, because I felt that I was simply not doing a good job of explaining my question. The discussion always seemed to revert to the benefits of hunting - which is a separate topic.
I have a really crappy photo of the first gang-gang cockatoos I ever saw - we stalked them for hours. We got a real thrill from following their calls, and getting fleeting glimpses of dark coloured birds that may or may not have been them. But, I am so proud of that photo! That's my trophy!
I can explain why I like looking for wildlife to snap a trophy photo, but no one has yet explained the thrill of stalking wildlife and then killing them. I keep hearing that I wouldn't understand until I try it - well, I heard that about cocaine and heroin as a teenager, so no thanks; I am happy for it to remain a mystery.
JBZvolunteer
Well-Known Member
Stefka, yes I did. They are the two breeders we currently have and we don't ever plan on killing them. They are our two original goats. We use to have more but those died at a young age from some type of immune deficiency we think which is what caused the health problems. Let me Explain the whole housing situation for them. They currently have a quarter acre pen for the female side of the herd and a smaller pen for our male. These two pens our in the acre of land located next to our house. Our yard is then surrounded by 20-25 acres of fields. Outside of this is a large swamp with a healthy deer population. To make things even safer for our animals we also in the winter keep them in the barn. So in conclusion, it doesn't make sense for us to allow a group of coyote's to cross through the yard.
disregarding entirely the hunting of animals for food or for control reasons, I really would like an answer from Monty as to why people trophy hunt (I'm only singling out Monty because he is the only Zoochat member who does or wants to trophy hunt, as far as has been admitted). And please do so without the remarks about the fees going towards conservation and the meat to the local people. Those aren't the reasons people trophy hunt, those are side effects from the hunt. What I and nanoboy want to know, is why do you want to kill animals in the first place. If its just because you like killing animals then that is a perfectly valid reason (not one anyone else here would identify with probably, but it is still a valid reason). So why do it, why the need to actually kill the animal rather than just observe or photograph?
As a prompter, here's a quote I took from a hunting website which I posted on another thread of this nature:
http://www.zoochat.com/65/hunting-giraffes-255159/
As a prompter, here's a quote I took from a hunting website which I posted on another thread of this nature:
http://www.zoochat.com/65/hunting-giraffes-255159/
[the follow-up was that the hunter shot and killed the "beautiful and special" bongo]
nanoboy
Well-Known Member
Coincidentally, I am watching an episode of "Wildlife Man with David Ireland" as I type this. He just killed a few feral pigs. 
Anyway, I had typed a few possible reasons for trophy hunting in my previous post, but I deleted them because I did not want to prejudice anyone's answers and put words in their mouths, so to speak.
Anyway, I had typed a few possible reasons for trophy hunting in my previous post, but I deleted them because I did not want to prejudice anyone's answers and put words in their mouths, so to speak.
I did not think this thread was about trophy hunting, but why people hunt.
I do not have a single trophy, but if I ever shoot a large Sambar stage I will get it mounted.
Can not tell you a definite reason, except that it is an impressive animal which I do like the look of, and it would be a waste to just take the meat and leave the rest for the wild dogs and foxes. I have friends with mounted animals and they are works of art. Some people have hideous paintings I hate on their walls, other people have animals in lifelike poses.
I do have one stuffed animal, and Owl. It was done by a vegetarian cousin of my wife's who collects road kill and mounts them. She has a lot of mounted birds herself. What is the difference between having stuffed animals killed by a car or shot yourself. If done well they are both beautiful and lifelike.
I do not have a single trophy, but if I ever shoot a large Sambar stage I will get it mounted.
Can not tell you a definite reason, except that it is an impressive animal which I do like the look of, and it would be a waste to just take the meat and leave the rest for the wild dogs and foxes. I have friends with mounted animals and they are works of art. Some people have hideous paintings I hate on their walls, other people have animals in lifelike poses.
I do have one stuffed animal, and Owl. It was done by a vegetarian cousin of my wife's who collects road kill and mounts them. She has a lot of mounted birds herself. What is the difference between having stuffed animals killed by a car or shot yourself. If done well they are both beautiful and lifelike.
Previously I was using the term "trophy hunting", meaning hunting for sport not so much for actually collecting trophies as such; I really should have used the term "sport hunting" or something similar I suppose. In other words (as I have already also said!), hunting not for food or control but for no reason other than killing. However, you still haven't answered the question! You are still saying "it would be a waste to just take the meat and leave the rest " - in other words, hunting for meat, and then you sidetracked the issue completely by talking about mounted specimens as works of art. The closest you've come to an answer is saying you think that the animal is impressive - why is it necessary to kill it to appreciate that? You said on another thread that you would like to go hunting in Africa. Irrespective of whether you mount the animal's head or not, why do you want to go kill an elephant in Africa? That is the question I'm interested in: why do you want to shoot and kill an elephant?Monty said:
Right then, the reason people hunt is they like it. Does there have to be any other reason.
People do a lot of things I don't like, so I don't do those things, I don't ask for their reasons.
In Australia many people have a hunting mentality that they hunt and kill as many introduced species as they can and say they do it for environmental reason. NZ is the same, but there they are often killing animals native to Australian like Possums. I think the environmental reasons are only partly true. I have heard many times those same people say they don't agree with hunting native animals in Africa, especially Elephants. The fact is though that they like hunting, and do not know that sustainable managed hunting protects species, exactly the same as their hunting of introduced pests in Australia.
I do not want to kill an elephant, but would like to hunt one. I have read many times about elephant hunting that killing an elephant is a very sad moment. The only happy ones are the local native population who arrive in their hundreds and remove all the meat. There is nothing to be ashamed about in the sustainable and humane killing of any animal if the meat is to utilized or the environment benefits from it's death.
I once sort of went wale hunting. I was with an Inuit family in the north of Canada and an animal was spotted which they thought was a Narwhal. We all launched the boat quickly and got to the spot it was last seen. When it surfaced the next time the Inuit man with the rifle was able to identify it through the scope as a seal and we went back to land. If it had have been a Narwhal I would have helped them all I could.
Where do you draw the line. Is it alright to help with killing of a Narwhal if the indigenous people will utilize the carcass. Is it therefore alright to shoot the Elephant as it will also be utilized by the indigenous population.
Killing any animal is sad, but they will die of something and a bullet is the most humane. I even feel sorry for all foxes I kill, but that will not stop me shooting them. I feel worse when they kill my lambs or chooks.
People do a lot of things I don't like, so I don't do those things, I don't ask for their reasons.
In Australia many people have a hunting mentality that they hunt and kill as many introduced species as they can and say they do it for environmental reason. NZ is the same, but there they are often killing animals native to Australian like Possums. I think the environmental reasons are only partly true. I have heard many times those same people say they don't agree with hunting native animals in Africa, especially Elephants. The fact is though that they like hunting, and do not know that sustainable managed hunting protects species, exactly the same as their hunting of introduced pests in Australia.
I do not want to kill an elephant, but would like to hunt one. I have read many times about elephant hunting that killing an elephant is a very sad moment. The only happy ones are the local native population who arrive in their hundreds and remove all the meat. There is nothing to be ashamed about in the sustainable and humane killing of any animal if the meat is to utilized or the environment benefits from it's death.
I once sort of went wale hunting. I was with an Inuit family in the north of Canada and an animal was spotted which they thought was a Narwhal. We all launched the boat quickly and got to the spot it was last seen. When it surfaced the next time the Inuit man with the rifle was able to identify it through the scope as a seal and we went back to land. If it had have been a Narwhal I would have helped them all I could.
Where do you draw the line. Is it alright to help with killing of a Narwhal if the indigenous people will utilize the carcass. Is it therefore alright to shoot the Elephant as it will also be utilized by the indigenous population.
Killing any animal is sad, but they will die of something and a bullet is the most humane. I even feel sorry for all foxes I kill, but that will not stop me shooting them. I feel worse when they kill my lambs or chooks.