When science goes backwards

Chlidonias

Moderator
Staff member
15+ year member
I would have thought this was an April Fool joke if it wasn't released on the 3rd of April (unless its been unwittingly recycled, which I sort of suspect is exactly what has happened). If you watch the little video on the first link you'll see what I mean.
Scientist says dinosaurs may have been aquatic
A prominent English scientist has theorised that dinosaurs were primarily aquatic animals which spent most of their time in shallow lakes and used their giant tails as swimming aids.

Cambridge cell biologist Brian Ford said he was led to the conclusion after studying the unusual bodies of dinosaurs, the Daily Mail reports.

"They have a large and bulky body with a huge and muscular tail which would be better used to propel and steer a swimming dinosaur," Mr Ford said.

"When you think of it like that, it all makes sense. The bulky muscular tail would have been impracticable as depicted in the conventional images, and the abundant fossil footprints do not show tail dragging."

However, Dr Paul Barrett, a paleontologist at the Natural History Museum in London disagrees with the hypothesis.

He said Mr Ford's comments about dinosaurs struggling to support their tails have been discredited by recent engineering discoveries on load-bearing structures.

"Dinosaurs had more than enough muscle strength in their legs to get around easily on land," Dr Barrett said.

"They were engineered for it."
Mr Ford is an independent research biologist and UK media personality who reports on scientific issues for the general public.

He has fellowships at numerous UK universities including Cambridge and Cardiff.

Dinosaurs DIDN'T rule the earth: The huge creatures actually lived in water - and their tails were swimming aids | Mail Online
We know huge dinosaurs once roamed the Earth - but their little feet and huge bulky tails don’t look ideal for getting around.

A Cambridge scientist believes he has the answer – claiming that dinosaurs actually lived in water. The creatures would have spent most of their time splashing through lakes between 15ft and 30ft deep, and their huge tails helped them swim.

He says thinking of them as aquatic creatures explains everything, and means a major reassessment of the ‘Jurassic Park’ idea of them roaming grassy plains.

Brian Ford, a cell biologist, believes this explains why archaeologists have unearthed dinosaur footprints for the dinosaurs, but there is no sign of tailmarks as if they wasted large amounts of energy holding their tails in the air.

In a radical theory, he believes the tails were a swimming aid as large dinosaurs spent most of their time paddling in lakes around 15ft to 30ft deep and their footprints made in the muddy depths, then dried up.

He believes this explains why many of them – which weighed up to 100 tonnes only had two little legs - whereas today’s largest animals, the elephant and rhinoceros, have four.

It also explains why their tails are ‘proportionately massive’, he says, while elephants and rhinos have tiny tails.

Ford, who has laid out his theory in science magazine Laboratory News, said: ‘I am now certain that the dinosaurs were primarily aquatic creatures.

‘They have a large and bulky body with a huge and muscular tail which would be better used to propel and steer a swimming dinosaur.

‘Dinosaurs are usually depicted standing in a vast arid plain, but I believe the scene was actually a shallow lake in which the water supports the weight of the animals. They evolved when the world was largely covered in shallow lakes, and the mud at the bottom of them eventually formed layers of Liassic limestone.

'When you think of it like that, it all makes sense. The bulky muscular tail would have been impracticable as depicted in the conventional images and the abundant fossil footprints do not show tail dragging.

‘They used the water to support their mass, buoy up their tails, regulate their temperature and provide a habitat for their food. All the research, all the Hollywood films, the artwork, everything need to be revised.’

Some large dinosaurs such as the spinosaurus were known to eat fish, while most other large dinosaurs were leaf-eaters apart from the carnivore T-Rex.

During the dinosaur era 55 million years ago, the Earth was much hotter and he believes the pools would have been a balmy 37C.

However Dr Paul Barrett, a palaeontologist at the Natural History Museum in London said the theory does not stack up.

He said: ‘This idea was very popular from around the 1920s, but since the 1960s we have demonstrated with the help of engineering work on load-bearing structures, that dinosaurs had more than enough muscle strength in their legs to get around easily on land. They were engineered for it.

‘You run into more problems when you put them into water as they would have had trouble breathing, and would have been slow to move around in squelchy mud. They may well have lived near water or gone into it sometimes to cool off, but I just don’t buy the theory that they lived in it.’
 
It's been theorised now for some years (and accepted) that the tail on things like T.rex didn't drag on the ground but was held in the air as a counterbalance to the weight of the forebody.

Obviously this cell biologist hasn't heard of this theory.

:p

Hix
 
I am afraid that Cardiff university has been home to one or two controversial scientists (perhaps better described at nu**ers) and as for Cambridge . . . .

Alan
 
just googled Brian Ford and found this on Wikipedia (obviously added recently by a sensible person!): "The April issue of 2012 of Laboratory News contained an article that has caused paleontologists and other geoscientists to question the scientific integrity of the publication. The article by, written by Brian J. Ford puts forward the idea that all large dinosaurs were aquatic. Ford -- a microbiologist -- lacked any training in paleontology, and more importantly had not presented any quantitative evidence in support of his idea. Nevertheless, the idea has been uncritically embraced by some elements of the popular press, including BBC 4, Daily Mail, Sky News Australia, Times of India, Telegraph, Top News, Cambridge News, Metro, and IB Times. These publications have framed Dr. Ford’s hypothesis as if it were a new idea and a subject of debate among paleontologists, when the idea of aquatic dinosaurs was considered nearly a century ago, and rejected after careful research forty years ago"
 
and I like this article from Dinosaur Tracking Blog - Where Paleontology Meets Pop Culture
Earlier this week, the rotting corpse of a discarded dinosaur idea rose from the depths. Brian J. Ford, a television personality and self-styled independent researcher, decided that Apatosaurus, Allosaurus and kin just looked wrong ambling about on land. Unfettered by the accumulation of scientific evidence about how dinosaurs moved and the environments they lived in, Ford decided to set scientists straight by floating an idea that had been sunk decades ago—that all large dinosaurs spent their lives in water. And, like the bad science it is, the idea strained to explain everything about dinosaur biology. Not only did the idea supposedly explain why non-avian dinosaurs went extinct—their watery homes dried up, of course—but the aquatic setting also explained the small arms of the tyrannosaurs. The great tyrants, Ford said, would catch fish and hold them close for visual inspection before downing the sashimi. Ford’s speculation is a buffet of nonsense. There is so much wrong with it, it’s hard to know where to start.

Ford certainly has a right to his opinion. The weight of the evidence absolutely crushes his ill-formed idea, but there’s no rule against making poorly substantiated claims on the internet. Heck, much of the web is sadly founded on such sludge. But I was taken aback by how many news sources not only took Ford seriously, but cast him as a kind of scientific underdog. In a BBC4 Today interview—which helped spread this swamp of insufficient evidence and poor reasoning—host Tom Feilden cast Ford as a Galileo-type hero, boldly defending his revolutionary idea while the stodgy paleontological community refused to budge from its orthodoxy. Despite Natural History Museum paleontologist Paul Barrett’s admirable attempt to set Feilden straight, the radio host concluded that Ford’s idea was a new and exciting notion, even though the image of wallowing sauropods was part of the old image of dinosaurs that had been cast out in the 1960s. As artist Matt van Rooijen highlighted in his latest Prehistoric Reconstruction Kitteh cartoon, it would seem that the old is new again.

Other news sources followed Feilden’s lead. At the Daily Mail, a source not exactly known for reliable science coverage, reporter Tamara Cohen recapitulated Ford’s argument. Paul Barrett again offered a dissenting view at the bottom of the article, but the article promotes Ford’s idea anyway. “Dinosaurs DIDN’T rule the earth: The huge creatures ‘actually lived in water’ – and their tails were swimming aids,” the headline gasped. Hannah Furness did much the same in the Telegraph, summarizing Ford’s statements at length before, in the last line, plunking down a quote from Barrett saying that Ford’s idea is nonsense. Elsewhere, FOX News and Australia’s Sky News ran a syndicated version of the story that followed the same form, and the Cambridge News didn’t even bother to get a second opinion on Ford’s work. But my favorite howler came from the internet-based TopNews, which concluded that “it had [sic] become all the more imperative that further research is done on [Ford's] theory so that some sort of conclusive findings can be presented.” No, it isn’t imperative at all. Ford’s idea is not even close to a theory, or even science. Ford’s evidence-free approach doesn’t make any testable predictions, and there is no actual scientific debate to be had here. Repeating “Dinosaurs look better in water” ad infinitum isn’t science, no matter how many journalists are enamored with the idea.

Paleontologists quickly jumped on the idea. Dave Hone and Mike Taylor called out Ford’s idea as old-school nonsense. Scott Hartman dug in at length in his post “When journalists attack!” and Michael Habib wrote a takedown of the bog-dwelling sauropod idea from a biomechanical perspective. And, earlier today, Don Prothero rightly cast the controversy as yet another media failure in reporting science. Prothero writes:


Once again, we have a glorified amateur playing with his toy dinosaurs who manages to get a gullible “journalist” to print his story with a straight face and almost no criticism. Feilden didn’t bother to check this guy’s credentials, consulted with only one qualified expert and then only used one sentence of rebuttal, and gave the story the full promotion because it was a glamorous topic (dinosaurs) and challenged conventional wisdom.

Poor reporting is entirely to blame here. “Amateur, armed with dinosaur models, says all of dinosaur paleontology is wrong” would be a more accurate way to cast the story, and seen that way, it isn’t really worth talking about. But it seems that merely having a controversial, unfounded opinion can be the price of admission for wide media attention.

This is hardly the first time poorly supported paleontology claims have received more attention than they deserve. While it was a minor event, in February io9 ran a story highlighting the unsubstantiated notion that the little pterosaur Jeholopterus was a vampiric little biter that supped on dinosaur blood. The author, Keith Veronese, was clear that the idea was not accepted by paleontologists, but he still romanticized the idea of an outsider rattling the academic cage. The paleontologists behind the Pterosaur.net blog refuted the vampire pterosaur idea and questioned the usefulness of promoting ideas that lack any solid evidence, though I have to wonder how many people found the specialist rebuttal.

And then there was the legendary hyper-intelligent, artistic squid. Last October, a number of journalists fell for the spectacularly nonsensical idea of a Triassic “Kraken” which supposedly created self-portraits from ichthyosaur skeletons. While veteran science reporters wisely avoided the hyped story, enough journalists paid attention that the hype spread far and wide through syndication. I tore into the nonsense, calling out what I believed to be terrible reporting, and I heard a lot of tut-tutting from my writer colleagues that I was unfairly bashing all of science journalism.

To which I wanted to ask “Well, where were you in all this?” I’m thrilled that the New York Times and Wall Street Journal didn’t parrot the fantastic claims, but the story was still copied and pasted to places like Yahoo!, FOX News, MSNBC, and elsewhere. The story was put in front of a lot of eyeballs, even if cherished journalistic institutions didn’t take part. While nonsense is proliferating, should we really feel smug and self-assured that we didn’t fall into the same trap? Don’t we, as people who care about accurately communicating the details of science to the public, have a responsibility to be whistleblowers when spurious findings are being repeated without criticism? I believe so. We all snicker and sigh as the usual suspects promote sensational claims, but I think it’s important to take that frustration and call out credulous, gullible, over-hyped reporting whenever it might bob to the surface.
 
"And then there was the legendary hyper-intelligent, artistic squid. Last October, a number of journalists fell for the spectacularly nonsensical idea of a Triassic “Kraken” which supposedly created self-portraits from ichthyosaur skeletons."
I had, of course, to do a search for this, and this article pretty much says it all really: The Giant, Prehistoric Squid That Ate Common Sense | Wired Science | Wired.com
We have a serious problem with science journalism. A big one, in fact, and today that problem takes the form of a giant, prehistoric squid with tentacles so formidable that it has sucked the brains right out of staff writers’ heads.

While making the rounds among a few California museums late last month, I kept hearing rumors of a bombastic, super-hyped presentation due to be presented at this year’s Geological Society of America meeting in Minneapolis. The scuttlebutt was that someone was going to give a talk about a super-intelligent, predatory squid which fed on huge ichthyosaurs during the Triassic. Fascinating, if true, but the reason that all the paleontologists I met were chuckling was because there was not a shred of actual evidence to back up the claims. Apparently, whoever was set to give the talk had apparently stayed up late watching It Came From Beneath the Sea too many times.

Now the talk has officially been given and the scant details of the proposition have been oozed out into the newswires by way of a press release. Let me be clear — there is no paper yet or anything specific for those not in attendance at GSA to look at. This fact will be key to the media nonsense which has been swirling around the web today.

You can find the skinny through ScienceDaily and the official GSA abstract, but the basic story is as follows. In central Nevada — among the roughly 215 million-year-old, Late Triassic rocks of what has come to be known as Berlin-Ichthyosaur State Park — paleontologists have previously found the remains of numerous marine reptiles called Shonisaurus popularis. These were some of the largest ichthyosaurs to have ever swum the ancient seas, and this particular site has been of interest to paleontologists because multiple individuals have been found together at some localities. Why these individuals were found together in a mass death assemblage is unknown — explanations have ranged from stranding to poisoning by a prehistoric red tide — but now Mark McMenamin and wife Dianna Schulte-McMenamin of Mount Holyoke College have suggested that the graveyard is actually a cache of bones collected and arranged by a squid the likes of which has never been seen.

There is no direct evidence for the existence of the animal the McMenamins call “the kraken.” No exceptionally preserved body, no fossilized tentacle hooks, no beak — nothing. The McMenamins’ entire case is based on peculiar inferences about the site. It is a case of reading the scattered bones as if they were tea leaves able to tell someone’s fortune. Rather than being distributed through the bonebed by natural processes related to decay and preservation, the McMenamins argue that the Shonisaurus bones were intentionally arrayed in a “midden” by a huge cephalopod nearly 100 feet long. (How the length of the imaginary animal was estimated is anyone’s guess.) But that’s not all — the McMenamins speculate that his “kraken” played with its food:


The proposed Triassic kraken, which could have been the most intelligent invertebrate ever, arranged the vertebral discs in biserial patterns, with individual pieces nesting in a fitted fashion as if they were part of a puzzle. The arranged vertebrae resemble the pattern of sucker discs on a cephalopod tentacle, with each amphicoelous vertebra strongly resembling a coleoid sucker. Thus the tessellated vertebral disc pavement may represent the earliest known self‑portrait.


I guess a giant, ichthyosaur-eating “kraken” wasn’t enough. A squid with a stroke of artistic genius was clearly the simplest explanation for the formation of the bonebeds. *facepalm*

Of course, the McMenamins were not the first people to ponder how the ichthyosaurs came to rest at the site. Paleontologist David Bottjer wrote a summary of the bonebed — largely based on the work of colleague Jennifer Hogler – for the book Exceptional Fossil Preservation. As a whole, the fossil deposits indicate that different Shonisaurus specimens died and became preserved in different ways. Some skeletons were scattered by currents and scavengers, and other, more-complete individuals — such as those at the Fossil House Quarry — were well preserved and found in multi-individual groups. In this latter case, a lack of encrusting invertebrates would seem to indicate that the skeletons came to be preserved in deep water environments with low levels of dissolved oxygen. The initial cause of death for the marine reptiles is unknown, but there is no good evidence that the exceptional sites were, to borrow from Ringo Starr, giant killer octopus gardens.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Esteemed scientist and science communicator Carl Sagan reminded us of that throughout his career, but the message didn’t sink in at some newdesks. All you have to do is track the news of the “kraken” to see that recycling press releases often counts for “science news” right now. Jeanna Bryner of LiveScience swallowed the big squid story whole and had her version regurgitated at FOX and CBS News. Dean Praetorius of the Huffington Post, Houston Chronicle’s “Sci Guy” Eric Berger, and TG Daily’s Kate Taylor also took the bait. Who could resist a sensational, super-sized squid? Only Cyriaque Lamar of io9 sounded a minor note of skepticism — “But the possibility of finding that which is essentially a gargantuan mollusk’s macaroni illustration?”, Lamar wrote, “That’s the kind of glorious crazy you hope is reality.” Leave it to science bloggers like PZ Myers to point out how ridiculous this media feeding frenzy is.

But what really kills me about this story is the fact that no reporter went to get a second opinion. Each and every story appears to be based directly off the press release and uses quotes directly from that document. No outside expert was contacted for another opinion in any of the stories — standard practice in science journalism — and, frankly, all the stories reek of churnalism. What does it say about the general quality of science reporting when major news sources are content to repackage sensationalist, evidence-lite speculations and print them without further thought or comment? Whether you think the “kraken” story should have been reported or ignored due to lack of evidence, the fact remains that journalists should have actually done their jobs rather than act as facilitators of hype. You don’t have to be a paleontologist to realize that there’s something fishy about claims that there was a giant, ichthyosaur-crunching squid when there is no body to be seen.

Unbelievably, even New Scientist ran the story as if it was, you know, actual science: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2011/10/-if-octopi-can-catch.html
 
You do realise that you are the only one posting on this thread right? Go get som possum pies this long weekend instead of finding old articles. :D

Anyhow, just thought that I would make a courtesy post and say that I read all you articles. All branches of science are plagued with charlatans and journalists who are after a sensational story. The really sad articles are the ones that say "researchers at MIT are working on new technology that ...." but never state that it may or may not work, and if it does, it would only be available to the public in 10 years.
 
nanoboy said:
You do realise that you are the only one posting on this thread right? Go get som possum pies this long weekend instead of finding old articles.
what is your obsession with possum pies? Perhaps invest in some glasses and maths tuition as well: six replies to the thread, from four members (including myself) :p
 
If you don't want to read the old articles Nanoboy, don't look at this thread. :p

I for one enjoyed reading about an artistic kraken that not only had talent, but was self-aware of it's own appearance (something a lot of people I've seen don't appear to be aware of).

:p

Hix
 
If you don't want to read the old articles Nanoboy, don't look at this thread. :p

I for one enjoyed reading about an artistic kraken that not only had talent, but was self-aware of it's own appearance (something a lot of people I've seen don't appear to be aware of).

:p

Hix

You guys are like the Lone Ranger and Tonto - but who is the hero, and who is the sidekick? :confused:

:D
 
"And then there was the legendary hyper-intelligent, artistic squid. Last October, a number of journalists fell for the spectacularly nonsensical idea of a Triassic “Kraken” which supposedly created self-portraits from ichthyosaur skeletons."]

Haha, the second I saw the title I was about to bring this up.
 
who is the sidekick? :confused:

Well, if you think hard, the answer will probably become obvious.


Hint: One of us is from New Zealand.


:p :p :p :p :p
 
Back
Top