When they can't breed them, then should try every option possible

[Nikola Chavkoski]

but a zoo wouldn't be doing AI if it was fresh

My opinion is that they should start with fresh sperm; This way they eliminate the risk of agression and fatal outcome as it sometimes happens, male killing the female, the tigress. And also pairs animals that otherwise would never mate, if they reject each other. It can be done real-time, both tigers sedated, semen collected from the male and tigress inseminated shortly after. This way, the chance for concieving is greatest. They just need to pick the right timing, and that is checked by testing for excreted hormones in the faeces and the urine.

If successful, then can transfer semen across a continent or world-wide.

 

[cerperal]

This way they eliminate the risk of agression and fatal outcome as it sometimes happens, male killing the female, the tigress. And also pairs animals that otherwise would never mate, if they reject each other. It can be done real-time, both tigers sedated, semen collected from the male and tigress inseminated shortly after

So your plan is to replace pairing and control of mixing (that can go very wrong but almost always doesn't) with double sedation and a medical procedure (that even the vets undertaking the procedure have little to no control over reactions to)?

 

[The Sleepy Hippo]

What's the interest to use costly AI technics to save a lineage of a common species, frequent in the wild as in zoos of other continents (Americas and Europe at least)?

Because the species is banned from import into Australia, so the populations in America and Europe are of little use to the Australian population other than AI.

 

[TinoPup]

My opinion is that they should start with fresh sperm; This way they eliminate the risk of agression and fatal outcome as it sometimes happens, male killing the female, the tigress. And also pairs animals that otherwise would never mate, if they reject each other. It can be done real-time, both tigers sedated, semen collected from the male and tigress inseminated shortly after. This way, the chance for concieving is greatest. They just need to pick the right timing, and that is checked by testing for excreted hormones in the faeces and the urine.

If successful, then can transfer semen across a continent or world-wide.

You're assuming here that sedating the animals is safer than the possibility of aggression between the two, but it isn't. This would also require the facility having a vet area big enough to immobilize two adult tigers and all the staff required, two of the different monitoring machines, etc. This is entirely unrealistic.

 

[15399]

Even beyond the technical side of breeding, it's also unrealistic to say all species/all individuals of species should be bred. In order for that to happen, you would need to have an unlimited amount of space available for offspring and other animals in zoos. Space is a limiting factor, and while I am not suggesting zoos are utilizing space to its maximal potential (many aren't), even if all zoos used every inch of space they have for exhibits, there would still be nowhere near enough space for zoos to breed every species.

I'm also confused about why you are suggesting every zoo needs to breed a species. There is a big need for zoos to keep non-breeding animals as well- whether it be animals that aren't genetically valuable, animals that are geriatric and/or too young to breed, bachelor groups of surplus males, or other animals that aren't valuable from a breeding perspective. Don't these animals deserve a good home to live in as well? Furthermore, if every zoo bred a species, that species would quickly end up exceeding its carrying capacity in zoos, and especially in populations that are demographically healthy it is important to limit breeding such that there is an adequate, but not excessive, number in zoos.

 

[JVM]

We need to stop thinking of zoos as breeding centers for endangered species intended for rewilding. The goal of breeding is to ensure sustainable populations of popular species for public display, which doubles as an insurance population, and the purpose of public display for popular species is to inspire people to care about nature and the environment.

 

[Great Argus]

We need to stop thinking of zoos as breeding centers for endangered species intended for rewilding.

For a select few species this is still the case - Guam Rail, Guam Kingfisher, Orange-bellied Parrot, California Condor, California Red-legged Frog, and such. However for the vast majority of zoo species breeding is very limited by available space - as has been pointed out space is the biggest limiting factor and there just isn't the ability for all zoos to breed animals willy-nilly. Many larger species are bred quite sporadically if they're common - lions in the AZA is a good example. If everyone was breeding lions we'd quickly have more lions than we'd know what to do with...

 

[Nikola Chavkoski]

But when it comes to extremely rare species, you can't just waste them. Especialy when there are similar efforts going on in Malaysia.

I'm also confused about why you are suggesting every zoo needs to breed a species.

?? I was sugesting must breed extremely rare animals, when they already have them. Suitable animals for breeding.

 

[Nikola Chavkoski]

This would also require the facility having a vet area big enough to immobilize two adult tigers and all the staff required, two of the different monitoring machines, etc. This is entirely unrealistic.

This is more individual for each zoo. Some zoos are well equiped. The procedures can take place in indoor enclosures using movable equipment, they don't need to bring the animals in the zoo clinic.

 

[TinoPup]

This is more individual for each zoo. Some zoos are well equiped. The procedures can take place in indoor enclosures using movable equipment, they don't need to bring the animals in the zoo clinic.

Any remotely reputable place is going to do something like this in a vet facility.

 

[JVM]

For a select few species this is still the case - Guam Rail, Guam Kingfisher, Orange-bellied Parrot, California Condor, California Red-legged Frog, and such.

Yeah, there are always certain conservation-reliant species. I think too many young people are under the impression that zoos manage all animals in this way. Heck, that was my mindset when I joined zoochat ten years ago.

But when it comes to extremely rare species, you can't just waste them.

I really appreciate a lot what you're trying to say. I hate to come off with indifference and negativity, but wildlife conservation has stopped subscribing to much romantic notions and has largely become about using fewer keystone species to protect complex ecosystems.

Keep in mind, there are only around 238 AZA facilities, a decent number of which are limited to smaller species or are specialized to certain groups, and most species need 500+ individuals or higher to maintain a sustainable breeding population... and old exhibits that once held several species are regularly being replaced by larger habitats that maximize welfare for one or two species instead. Carrying capacity is not only limited, but declining, especially for mammals. So big cat houses become lion houses, bear lines become habitats for a single bear, and so forth.

 

[Nikola Chavkoski]

So your plan is to replace pairing and control of mixing (that can go very wrong but almost always doesn't) with double sedation and a medical procedure (that even the vets undertaking the procedure have little to no control over reactions to)?

As I am aware, they have problems in pairing males with females, in Europe and in Malaysia. Males too agressive, females rejecting males. And there was one case where male Malayan tiger killed the female, while atempting to pair them for breeding, I must check but I think it was in UK, by the male imported by RSCC.

 

[15399]

As I am aware, they have problems in pairing males with females, in Europe and in Malaysia. Males too agressive, females rejecting males. And there was one case where male Malayan tiger killed the female, while atempting to pair them for breeding, I must check but I think it was in UK, by the male imported by RSCC.

While yes, there are examples out there of carnivores being killed by conspecifics in failed breeding attempts, there are even more examples out there of animals going under anesthesia for routine procedures and never waking back up. To dismiss that risk and try an AI procedure that has a (relatively) low likelihood of success unless it's an absolute necessity is plain irresponsible for any institution. AI is a great tool when used properly, but it should not be the first resort in all cases, but instead reserved for when special circumstances show it to be the best option for an individual animal and/or institution.

 

[Nikola Chavkoski]

If the Malayan tiger is not part of a reintroduction programme, the number of animals in the wild is irrelevant

For the Malayan tiger reintroduction programe, there is need to be a continuous reintroduction of pray animals too, in order for population to stabilise and to grow. It is not same to release tigers in India and in Malaysia. In India (and Nepal) there is plenty of pray animals. In Malaysian tropical forest, they are less densely populated and more difficult to be hunted by the tiger. One of the main issues why is Malayan tiger going toward extinction, is the lack of food (pray animals). Even Sumatra has twice bigger area than Malay peninsula, with more options for release of Sumatran tigers and more pray for them compared to Malay peninsula.

 

[Nikola Chavkoski]

To dismiss that risk and try an AI procedure that has a (relatively) low likelihood of success unless it's an absolute necessity is plain irresponsible for any institution.

It is necessity for the European Malayan tigers, because they are not breeding them or not able to do so. They will wipe them by letting them die off, from old age. Thus I wrote, maybe at least they can send some more valuable animals to USA or Malaysia. Or when there are already around 20 tigers, why don't start (with breeding, with AI) to build a sustainable population, with further imports in future.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

It can be done real-time, both tigers sedated, semen collected from the male and tigress inseminated shortly after.

Easier said than done but as we've recently established on another thread that you have trouble identifying whether tigers have been sedated or not, I don't think we'll be asking you to put your money where your mouth is!

 

[Nikola Chavkoski]

I don't think we'll be asking you to put your money where your mouth is!

I don't got it? Don't understand

that you have trouble identifying whether tigers have been sedated or not,

Because they were not. They were younger tigers, medium-sized and quite active in the enclosure. Bigger tigers, probably yes, but I took photos with the medium sized. Hence my gut feeling - I was terribly afraid beside non-sedated tiger, and left after 3-4 minutes.

 

[Lafone]

Because they were not. They were younger tigers, medium-sized and quite active in the enclosure. Bigger tigers, probably yes, but I took photos with the medium sized. Hence my gut feeling - I was terribly afraid beside non-sedated tiger, and left after 3-4 minutes.

A tiger the size of the one in the photo you showed (with no keeper near you) isn’t just going to a sit there while you pet it. They are sedated / declawed or had teeth ripped out, or all three. That’s well documented by expert accounts from reputable sources. A couple are linked in your other thread.

You’re entitled to your view of course but this insistence that a fully grown tiger just lay around while you laid hands on it doesn’t make much sense. Sedation isn’t something that should be done causally even with domestic pets or animals. Declawing and removing teeth is straight up cruel. I don’t get why people have their pictures taken with animals like this though you can do what you like I don’t think you should be surprised if some people are not fans. Unless you’re a vet I don’t think you can say for sure if an animal is sedated or not.

The key with captive breeding programmes is the animals all need somewhere to go. You can’t just start giving AI to all animals without plans on how they would be housed / released and the impact on the ecosystem.

In the case of Malaysian tigers is there a source where they are asking for them to be bred outside Malaysia and imported back? I agree it would be terrible to lose them as a sub species but it’s not just a matter of sedating and applying AI there’s a much bigger coordination.

It does raise the point of captive breeding programmes but very few are for wild release at the moment and I assume (people will correct me) that one of the roles of breeding programme management is to ensure there is a manageable population not just a good genetic mix.

 

[Nikola Chavkoski]

The key with captive breeding programmes is the animals all need somewhere to go. You can’t just start giving AI to all animals without plans on how they would be housed / released and the impact on the ecosystem.

At least 15 new non-EAZA holders can be found in Eastern Europe, and in smaller non-EAZA zoos across whole Europe. 15 zoos can easily house at least additional 30 tigers. But here, large zoos keep them, are not passing them to other zoos, but also are not breeding them. It is not Ok with so rare animal.

From the European population, maybe only around 6-7 female tigers are in a breeding condition. So it is not a lot of work to be done, to inseminate them.

Would be nice if population grows to 40 animals in the next 10 years, and then so on.

 

[Dassie rat]

Yes, then is relevant number of captive animals that stoods at around 120 animals (USA ~50, Europe ~20, Malaysia+Singapore ~50).

I remember reading that about 250 genetically diverse individuals of a large species are enough to safeguard a species in captivity. If so, 120 is more than enough and perhaps breeding should only be considered when an individual dies.

At least 15 new non-EAZA holders can be found in Eastern Europe, and in smaller non-EAZA zoos across whole Europe. 15 zoos can easily house at least additional 30 tigers. But here, large zoos keep them, are not passing them to other zoos, but also are not breeding them. It is not Ok with so rare animal.

Why do there need to be 'at least 15 new non-EAZA holders' in Eastern Europe? They would require space in the zoos. Which animals would they replace? I suspect that less popular animals would lose out again.