Whether the zoo animals should be fasted?

[Jurek7]

Read a good book on keeping animals in zoos. It is normal that big cats are fasted 1-2 days a week, crocodiles are usually fed only once a week or less. For hoofed animals or small birds which feed multiple times a day, fasting would be very damaging or deadly.

True, many animals in zoos are overweight or obese (individual zoos differ, at least one Mexican zoo seems to overfeed all its animals). There are now body scores developed for elephants and rhinos, among others, to estimate visually when animals are overweight (and these in zoos are on average overweight compared to the wild).

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Many others have already mentioned the shortcomings of your reasoning, Nikola from Mazedonia. Just let me add a few things:

- Observations of deliberate temporary fasting of zoo/circus animals have already been published long ago-see Carl Hagenbeck's "Beast and men" for an early example. So-nihil novi.
- Quite a bunch of animals, in particular smaller species can't be fasted due to their high metablism requirements. You should remember this from vet school (anaesthesia of rabbits & small rodents).
- Please just don't quote textbook statements for hardly any reason.
- If I were to feed my adult Eastern gaboon viper every 10 days, he would probably end up looking like a bloated sausage, and die of obstipation; not to mention some other reptiles I keep...

Yes I bear that in mind, for small animals (I've already mentioned that in my previous post in this thread, that there should not be fasting at all for example for hummingbirds, honeyeaters etc.)

Lol so you keep reptiles, that's great. But I do not understand very well about feeding of gaboon viper. You think that it should be fed more frequently? Ok, but I meant feeding on 10 days for some bigger snakes, with bigger pray.

Will you eventually, in some near future, send/sell me some of your reptiles, if I can not find from other place/source? I will keep them very well, and you will be able to inspect that.

Mazedonia (Ma'c'edonia, but Greeks may get angry, so FYROM for them.

Shortcommings of my reasoning. I can't explain detailed reasoning here, I just leave general reasoning - for discusing, whatever you like.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Read a good book on keeping animals in zoos. It is normal that big cats are fasted 1-2 days a week, crocodiles are usually fed only once a week or less. For hoofed animals or small birds which feed multiple times a day, fasting would be very damaging or deadly.

True, many animals in zoos are overweight or obese (individual zoos differ, at least one Mexican zoo seems to overfeed all its animals). There are now body scores developed for elephants and rhinos, among others, to estimate visually when animals are overweight (and these in zoos are on average overweight compared to the wild).

I don't think that one day fast would be detrimental for hoofed animals. Please read good what I am actually writing then reply, because I do not wrote more than one day fast for hoofed animals or elephants (like they will face in wildernes durring dry season or other factors). For big cats, even fasting of 1-2 days weekly it is not enough. For birds, I wrote fasting from 14-18 hours (but not for all types, not at all for the smallest birds.

I ll read about nutrition when I will realy have time for that, and most detailed for animal species that I will eventualy keep for my eventual zoo, hopefully.
Otherwise, I have read all EAZA Zoo nutrition conferences till know, except the last publishment from 2015, also nutrition of zoo animals from Merck, and what we have studied at University. You? Have you read some good book for zoo nutrition?

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Lol so you keep reptiles, that's great. But I do not understand very well about feeding of gaboon viper. You think that it should be fed more frequently? Ok, but I meant feeding on 10 days for some bigger snakes, with bigger pray.

Your belief that it is the rest of us that are not paying attention to what you say strikes me as ironic quite apart from the fact Batto told you a feed every ten days would be too much for a Gaboon and you took that to mean the opposite, you were already told that large snakes should be fed perhaps once or twice a year rather than ten days!

Will you eventually, in some near future, send/sell me some of your reptiles, if I can not find from other place? I will keep them very well, and you will be able to inspect that.

I imagine I can predict Batto's reaction:

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I don't think that one day fast would be detrimental for hoofed animals. Please read good what I am actually writing then reply, because I do not wrote more than one day fasting for hoofed animals or elephants. For big cats, even fasting of 1-2 days weekly it is not enough. For birds, I wrote fasting from 14-18 hours (but not for all types, not at all for the smallest birds.

Elephants and other hoofed animals constantly eat all day, just because they sometimes must go without food for certain periods of times in the wild doesn't mean it's healthier for them. Please not only read, but listen to what others are saying. Many zoos do use some sort of fasting as an enrichment tool for certain larger carnivores and 1-2 days at a time is enough. You also have to keep in mind that hungry animals can become even more aggressive and dangerous than usual and for safety reasons prolonged fasting might not be a good idea.

~Thylo

 

[Batto]

Will you eventually, in some near future, send/sell me some of your reptiles, if I can not find from other place? I will keep them very well, and you will be able to inspect that.

Do you think that, given your posts so far (including the all too frequent use of “Lol”), you appear like someone I could hand animals over? Just be honest. And to fuel your curiosity: I’m not limited to keeping reptiles...

Gaboon vipers are ambush predators with a rather slow metabolism; adults should be fed no more than once a month, if at all.

Hoofstock is too much of an umbrella term to do justice to the variety of dietary types; a mousedeer has very different dietary requirements than, say, a reindeer. For more and similar questions, please contact the zoo nutrionist groups of the AAZV.

Macedonia or Mazedonia-WGASA...

 

[Batto]

I imagine I can predict Batto's reaction:

Please imagine me laughing. Hard.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

For more and similar questions, please contact the zoo nutrionist groups of the AAZV.

Do you really want the AAZV to receive unsolicited emails telling them they are doing things wrong and that the source of this assertion is that the author has "read all EAZA Zoo nutrition conferences till know, except the last publishment from 2015, also nutrition of zoo animals from Merck, and what we have studied at University"?

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Your belief that it is the rest of us that are not paying attention to what you say strikes me as ironic quite apart from the fact Batto told you a feed every ten days would be too much for a Gaboon and you took that to mean the opposite, you were already told that large snakes should be fed perhaps once or twice a year rather than ten days!



I imagine I can predict Batto's reaction:

I wrote up to three month, not once or twice a year. And most of all, I do not represent here as some expert for to give true reasoning. I am just questioning, others, present my opinion, and when someones like Batto will answer, who most probably are experienced, I remember that - I learn that. Now I know that gaboon vipers are best to be fed just once a month. Altough this doesn't mean that I will not research from other sources when I will need (If I really need, because I do not plan to keep Gaboon viper in my eventual zoo).

 

[Jurek7]

Some basics of wild animal physiology would be helpful.

Grazing animals need to eat multiple times a day to get enough nutrition from their low quality diet. Time budget of an average grazer is dictated by passage time of the gut: fill digestive system-digest-fill again, and so on, 24/365. Elephants were once described as 'slaves of their stomaches'. Breaking down this routine repeatedly would be a way to make your valuable animals sick.

On the other end of the spectrum of 'eat constantly a little' - 'eat rarely and much' are carnivores, which don't normally eat every day. There fasting is normal, healthy and practiced in zoos.

 

[Batto]

I ll read about nutrition when I will realy have time for that, and most detailed for animal species that I will eventualy keep for my eventual zoo, hopefully.
Otherwise, I have read all EAZA Zoo nutrition conferences till know, except the last publishment from 2015, also nutrition of zoo animals from Merck, and what we have studied at University. You? Have you read some good book for zoo nutrition?

You might have read them-but have you truly understood them? Conference abstracts are only one facet of the whole picture. Maybe you should visit a special zoo nutrition workshop; I recall Markus Claus of the University of Zürich organizing some in the past.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I wrote up to three month, not once or twice a year.

You misunderstand again, perhaps deliberately; you have indeed said large snakes should be fed up to once every three months - although you did later say they should be fed once every ten days as shown in the following quote:

Ok, but I meant feeding on 10 days for some bigger snakes, with bigger pray.

However, what myself and others have repeatedly tried to tell you is that large snakes may only need to feed once or twice a year.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Do you think that, given your posts so far (including the all too frequent use of “Lol”), you appear like someone I could hand animals over? Just be honest. And to fuel your curiosity: I’m not limited to keeping reptiles...

Gaboon vipers are ambush predators with a rather slow metabolism; adults should be fed no more than once a month, if at all.

Hoofstock is too much of an umbrella term to do justice to the variety of dietary types; a mousedeer has very different dietary requirements than, say, a reindeer. For more and similar questions, please contact the zoo nutrionist groups of the AAZV.

Macedonia or Mazedonia-WGASA...

Well Ok then, it is your decision. I will improve.

I use Lol because I am used to it, because we commonly use this on fb page with my American fb friends, and some others. I use it like for 'Wow...'

And you keep other species than reptiles, wow, but what are you? Zookeper, vet? there used to be some cultural differences, you from Baltic region are more cold people, like the Canadians, but we from the South are more warmer and like Americans more, northern Europeans are quite cold as Canadians. It is related to climate, exposure to UV from the Sun, etc.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Elephants and other hoofed animals constantly eat all day, just because they sometimes must go without food for certain periods of times in the wild doesn't mean it's healthier for them. Please not only read, but listen to what others are saying. Many zoos do use some sort of fasting as an enrichment tool for certain larger carnivores and 1-2 days at a time is enough. You also have to keep in mind that hungry animals can become even more aggressive and dangerous than usual and for safety reasons prolonged fasting might not be a good idea.

~Thylo

I agree, good to mention.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Do you really want the AAZV to receive unsolicited emails telling them they are doing things wrong and that the source of this assertion is that the author has "read all EAZA Zoo nutrition conferences till know, except the last publishment from 2015, also nutrition of zoo animals from Merck, and what we have studied at University"?

And you think that that it is not enough? I think it is for start.
And can I know what are you actually working, what are you? Zookeper? Vet? I only know for you that you are a rabbit (so shy animal) in Chinese zodiac (born 1987) and that you love zoos, but also have a hobby for History? I would love to know more about you TeaLovingDave, since your posts are numerous here. Thanks in advance.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

You misunderstand again, perhaps deliberately; you have indeed said large snakes should be fed up to once every three months - although you did later say they should be fed once every ten days as shown in the following quote:



However, what myself and others have repeatedly tried to tell you is that large snakes may only need to feed once or twice a year.

Well ok thank for explaining me. Yes I wrote, some snakes would be fed every 10 days, some every 3 months, depending of the species and size of snake.

Now even feeding large snakes twice year, I read that, but think it is too much fasting period. I will research on net when I will need.

 

[Batto]

there used to be some cultural differences, you from Baltic region are more cold people, like the Canadians, but we from the South are more warmer and like Americans more, northern Europeans are quite cold as Canadians. It is related to climet, exposition to UV from the Sun, etc.

Unsophistication and immaturity are not related to climate, sun etc. Just grow up, Nikola. And stop badgering people for personal details. Try the PM option for that.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

You might have read them-but have you truly understood them? Conference abstracts are only one facet of the whole picture. Maybe you should visit a special zoo nutrition workshop; I recall Markus Claus of the University of Zürich organizing some in the past.

Thank you for proposal. Yes I understood them, and yes I've read just abstracts, but that was enough for me for these times. As I am not working with zoo animals, not even had a real chance, but just studying for them, not very detailed.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Some basics of wild animal physiology would be helpful.

Grazing animals need to eat multiple times a day to get enough nutrition from their low quality diet. Time budget of an average grazer is dictated by passage time of the gut: fill digestive system-digest-fill again, and so on, 24/365. Elephants were once described as 'slaves of their stomaches'. Breaking down this routine repeatedly would be a way to make your valuable animals sick.

On the other end of the spectrum of 'eat constantly a little' - 'eat rarely and much' are carnivores, which don't normally eat every day. There fasting is normal, healthy and practiced in zoos.

Agreed. But what about obese animals? They can be fasted, at least partially (eg. receiving 50% of the recommended dry matter intake, or calories)?

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Unsophistication and immaturity are not related to climate, sun etc. Just grow up, Nikola. And stop badgering people for personal details. Try the PM option for that.

Well I do not see myself as unsophisticated or unmature. This is quite as an insult, but different people different way of expressing and acting. I can wrote several unvanted features for you (from your posts here), but I'll not.

PM option - I don't understand this. Why not when we are so much commenting here? It would be not same for me to arguing with some who I know him better than with someone for wich I know just a little. It will not be the same arguing with someone with unrelated proffesion with mine, who just loves zoos and knows many things about them, than arguing with someone who has related proffesion (eg. veterinarian, zoologist, biologist, ecologist, etc.), passion, and plus experience.