Which camel species should most zoos keep?

[La Cucaracha]

Um, I don't think anyone is saying Giant pandas should go extinct. There's a big difference between wanting zoos to focus on other species and saying you want one's extinction.

Maybe not ITT, but I think most Zoochatters are familiar with the unfortunate opinion that giant pandas should be let to go extinct because they don't breed well in captivity and that zoos should focus on other species.

Sure, you could put a plains bison in the same enclosure designed for a camel and fill all the same criteria for an excellent, year-round attraction. I know some people don't think domestic animals belong in zoos (to which I say heritage livestock breeds are endangered, too).

But all of that is neither here nor there.

 

[15399]

Maybe not ITT, but I think most Zoochatters are familiar with the unfortunate opinion that giant pandas should be let to go extinct because they don't breed well in captivity and that zoos should focus on other species.

Really? I don't think anyone is saying giant pandas should be let go extinct, I'd be interested to see your proof of this. Furthermore, saying zoos should focus on another species (which I happen to agree with) is completely different from saying species should go extinct, as there are species that are subject to (sometimes quite successful) in-situ management without ever having a captive population (e.g., many cetaceans).

 

[Aardwolf]

Really? I don't think anyone is saying giant pandas should be let go extinct, I'd be interested to see your proof of this. Furthermore, saying zoos should focus on another species (which I happen to agree with) is completely different from saying species should go extinct, as there are species that are subject to (sometimes quite successful) in-situ management without ever having a captive population (e.g., many cetaceans).

For what it's worth, I've actually heard A LOT of people say that pandas should be allowed to go extinct. Never from anyone with a serious understanding of biology or conservation, but there's this perception among the general public that giant pandas are these hapless, bumbling, useless animals that only still exist because we find them cute and poor millions into their conservation - they don't want to mate, they can't survive in the wild, etc. None of which is true, of course - pandas do just fine provided their environmental conditions are met - but it is a stereotype that's pretty common online. Google "should pandas go extinct" or some variant of that and you will get tons of replies.

But yes, you are correct in pointing out that there is a world of difference between saying a species shouldn't be managed in zoos and aquariums and saying that it should go extinct. Many AZA TAGs identify species which they do not/never plan on maintaining in collections, but still have targeted as a priority for conservation support in the wild

 

[dillotest0]

For what it's worth, I've actually heard A LOT of people say that pandas should be allowed to go extinct. Never from anyone with a serious understanding of biology or conservation, but there's this perception among the general public that giant pandas are these hapless, bumbling, useless animals that only still exist because we find them cute and poor millions into their conservation - they don't want to mate, they can't survive in the wild, etc. None of which is true, of course - pandas do just fine provided their environmental conditions are met - but it is a stereotype that's pretty common online. Google "should pandas go extinct" or some variant of that and you will get tons of replies.

But yes, you are correct in pointing out that there is a world of difference between saying a species shouldn't be managed in zoos and aquariums and saying that it should go extinct. Many AZA TAGs identify species which they do not/never plan on maintaining in collections, but still have targeted as a priority for conservation support in the wild

I will say this.
We have known for quite a while about proper panda reproduction, how in many many cases they need more than a single pair for proper breeding behaviour...
so that China sends only pairs in the majority of cases brings some thoughts to my head that it may be on purpose...

 

[Dassie rat]

For what it's worth, I've actually heard A LOT of people say that pandas should be allowed to go extinct. Never from anyone with a serious understanding of biology or conservation, but there's this perception among the general public that giant pandas are these hapless, bumbling, useless animals that only still exist because we find them cute and poor millions into their conservation - they don't want to mate, they can't survive in the wild, etc.

Chris Packham suggested that giant pandas may not be worth saving: Should pandas be left to face extinction?

I will say this.
We have known for quite a while about proper panda reproduction, how in many many cases they need more than a single pair for proper breeding behaviour...
so that China sends only pairs in the majority of cases brings some thoughts to my head that it may be on purpose...

Colin Tudge wrote 'Last Animals in the Zoo', where he suggested that zoos should keep at least 2 male giant pandas with a female, so that she would choose the best competitor

 

[tigris115]

Tbh, I say just go with the temperature and who can be outside the most.

 

[dillotest0]

Colin Tudge wrote 'Last Animals in the Zoo', where he suggested that zoos should keep at least 2 male giant pandas with a female, so that she would choose the best competitor

precisely my point

 

[mrcriss]

I recall prior to Beale's acquisition the UK population was quite stagnant... some odds'n'sods remaining from years prior here'n'there but no breeding.
So maybe that was part of it...

We're trying our hardest. Hopefully will be able to start pushing some out into other parks next year if the demand is there

 

[mrcriss]

Than

Recommend a trip to Beale park if you want to see Guanaco - a very nice herd and the new youngsters are lovely. I didn’t realise they were there until I visited as thought they had llamas, I didn’t see them and then someone said they were guanaco so I kept a far more careful eye out next visit! - well worth a trip if you want to see them.

Camel wise I don’t mind I enjoy them anyway. I’ve also seen wild Bactrians in Mongolia, which was simply ace.

Thank you. They are a bit of a passion project for me. Highlight of my year were the babies!

 

[SwampDonkey]

I don't remember any zoo having signs mentioning wild Bactrian camels

I don't either - I'd be curious to hear whether anyone has seen the wild vs domestic distinction on any signage or heard it from staff/volunteers working with the camels or educating about them. If zoos aren't mentioning it, is there any conservation merit to keeping either species of camel?

ZooTampa had signage with some basic information when they exhibited Bactrian, but they have not displayed Bactrian or dromedary for some time; with dromedary being more recent.

 

[Lafone]

Than


Thank you. They are a bit of a passion project for me. Highlight of my year were the babies!

Deservedly they are cute! And rare to boot.

 

[Cat-Man]

As I already said, barring the number of humps the resemblance between Bactrian Camel and Wild Camel is pretty superficial; the former is larger, shaggier and noticeably more robust than the latter, with differently-shaped humps and browner hair. Conversely, the Dromedary is gracile, paler and with rather shorter sandier hair.... just like the Wild Camel.

Either option is inferior to the (sadly infeasible) option of establishing a captive population of Wild Camel, but neither is superior to the other.

I have sympathy with this argument but you can’t just disregard the most prominent and defining feature

 

[Sarus Crane]

I would say that of the two lines in the Camelid family they should be Guanacos for the Lamini and Bactrians for the Camelini. Guanacos are great for showcasing what camelids looked like during their evolution in North America and Bactrians are great for serving as proxies for their critically endangered wild cousins in Mongolia. I'm fascinated by the evolution of camelids and I found out recently that most North American camelids looked more or less like the Guanaco such as Oxydactylus and Hemiauchenia. What's even stranger is that the Dromedary-sized Aepycamelus giraffinus looked much more like a giant Miocene version of a Guanaco than an early camel like Camelops or Titanotylopus. Also, Bactrian Camels are more ancient than Dromedaries and the giant camels such as Titanotylopus & Megacamelus probably did grow a shaggy coat of hair to deal with temperatures during the winters of the Pliocene and Pleistocene. Now when I see Guanacos and Vicunas I just see modern day Oxydactyluses and Stenomyluses!!! When I was at Zootastic Park in North Carolina this summer I got to see their Bactrian, Dromedary, Llamas, & Alpacas and told their keeper all about their awesome extinct ancestors which she was amazed and had no prior knowledge of.