Whilst this baby is most welcome, it's another bull! How long before ZSL source some new breeding cows?
ZSL Whipsnade Zoo Whipsnade 2014 #2
- Thread starter Nisha
- Start date
I have just had a minor brainwave (which is also a minor miracle at my age
). Would it be possible to convert the Lubetkin Elephant House into the classiest butterfly walk-through in the country?Alan
I have just had a minor brainwave (which is also a minor miracle at my age
Alan
Probably more trouble than it's worth Alan-cost of a full refurb was last quoted at £5m+! Currently it's the classiest garage in the country!
Considering it's location, and prominence, in the zoo its a shame it seems to have been left without a purpose-it's had a few coats of paint in the years since the elephants left but that's it. Probably enough to keep it from falling down!
Personally, I'd net over the entire lemur walk through and have a South American walk through with marmosets, tamarins and the sakis (which currently seem a bit forlorn in the Discovery Centre). Use the Lubetkin as the night quarters or education centre.
Why should they bring in more breeding females?! That is a terrible idea. Whipsnade already has 3 breeding females: Aziza, Kaylee, Karishma, plus one young female who can have her first babies in a few years. That is more then enough for one zoo. If anything, Whipsnade already has too many females - the adults are all unrelated and that usually causes a lot of social problems. Whipsnade`s females must always be kept in 2 separate groups, because Mya and Kaylee don`t get along. So it`s mostly Mya with her friends Aziza and Karishma with offspring, and in the other group Kaylee, her daugther and her friend Lucha.
Bringing in more unrelated females is not just unnecessary, but would cause even more problems longterm.
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
It's not a terrible idea, it's a comment made by somebody who knows Whipsnade very well indeed, and can see that the Asiatic Elephant group has issues looming.
Whipsnade's adult cows, "Karishma" excluded, are 25-30 years old, which is to say that in another 10-15 years' time they may well be at the end of their reproductive lives. At the same time, the young female "Donna" is related to all the males at Whipsnade, so for her to stay an unrelated bull is required. And I very much doubt that the present bull house could hold more than one adult male.
These aren't insurmountable issues, but they do require thought. I don't know how far any of them can be addressed via the proposed new house.
Meanwhile, thirty miles up the road there's a group of cows without access to a bull. And nobody in the UK has grasped the nettle of a bachelor group - all the more reason to be frustrated with Port Lympne's recent actions.
These are largely the problems of success, but co-ordinated action by all of the elephant holders in the UK and Republic of Ireland will be needed soon.
I very much agree with Yassa that more outside breeding females are required. Quite the contrary, Whipsnade needs to downsize its herd and maintain one matriarchal breeding line in future. Thus, it will be short term either Mya, Kay-Lee et al or Azizah, daughter and friend Lucha.
If we would relinquish the notion that elephants do not need to develop the naturally socially structured groups in captivity, we are really on the road to nowhere.
That England and Ireland need a co-ordinated short term plan for young bull group(s) as well as breeding groups that are in line with the Asiatics EEP where a bull keeping facility is a must (so a Twycross line-up is a definite out of the question), I am in no doubt of.
For the moment, Chester and Whipsnade remain the main breeding groups, with Woburn a potentially important future one and Twycross very much still a bit the odd one in …
Other herds are elderly females that will eventually probably be replaced with breeding herd or maintaining this role.
BTW: Port Lympne did consciously move out of Asiatics years ago and is not about to re-start that. I personally think their decision not to house Africans either is a very informed one on the part of zoo staff and zoo management.
If we would relinquish the notion that elephants do not need to develop the naturally socially structured groups in captivity, we are really on the road to nowhere.
That England and Ireland need a co-ordinated short term plan for young bull group(s) as well as breeding groups that are in line with the Asiatics EEP where a bull keeping facility is a must (so a Twycross line-up is a definite out of the question), I am in no doubt of.
For the moment, Chester and Whipsnade remain the main breeding groups, with Woburn a potentially important future one and Twycross very much still a bit the odd one in …
Other herds are elderly females that will eventually probably be replaced with breeding herd or maintaining this role.
BTW: Port Lympne did consciously move out of Asiatics years ago and is not about to re-start that. I personally think their decision not to house Africans either is a very informed one on the part of zoo staff and zoo management.
As Kifaru Bwana mentioned, the way to build up an elephant group is through concentrating on one maternal line, keeping all female offspring and exchanging the bull every few years to avoid inbreeding.
That way, the problems in Whipsnade and Woburn can be solved. That Aziza and Kaylee are in their 30'th isn`t a problem. That`s prime breeding age - female elephants can easily breed until their mid-40'th, which means 15 more years to reproduce for both of them. They can both have serveral daugthers in that time frame. The worst you can do when building up an elephant group is getting impatient and bringing in too many unrelated females. Experience in so many zoos has shown that that will only cause fighting and elephants that need to be kept seperate from each other.
Emmet will need to leave soon, I agree. And Woburn desperately needs to let Raja go, too, to bring in a male who does breed. It is difficult to place bulls that havn`t bred yet, but thanks to the good-working asian elephant EEP, not impossible. Then I`d move Emmett to Woburn since that is so close. Then Whipsnade can bring in a new, unrelated, mature bull who can breed with Donna and all adult females.
That way, the problems in Whipsnade and Woburn can be solved. That Aziza and Kaylee are in their 30'th isn`t a problem. That`s prime breeding age - female elephants can easily breed until their mid-40'th, which means 15 more years to reproduce for both of them. They can both have serveral daugthers in that time frame. The worst you can do when building up an elephant group is getting impatient and bringing in too many unrelated females. Experience in so many zoos has shown that that will only cause fighting and elephants that need to be kept seperate from each other.
Emmet will need to leave soon, I agree. And Woburn desperately needs to let Raja go, too, to bring in a male who does breed. It is difficult to place bulls that havn`t bred yet, but thanks to the good-working asian elephant EEP, not impossible. Then I`d move Emmett to Woburn since that is so close. Then Whipsnade can bring in a new, unrelated, mature bull who can breed with Donna and all adult females.
If Woburn could find a home for the non-breeding Raja, Emmett could go there for a spell on breeding loan anyway. He is currently rather underused it seems. With only one young daughter at Whipsnade, they could probably afford to keep him longer(or 'share' him with Woburn) to hopefully get a couple more female calves.
If Whipsnade do plan to eventually move one of their two female subgroups, presumably they would plan to keep the one that has produced the most(or any!) female calves. The current set-up with the two non-compatable subgroups isn't ideal.
If Whipsnade do plan to eventually move one of their two female subgroups, presumably they would plan to keep the one that has produced the most(or any!) female calves. The current set-up with the two non-compatable subgroups isn't ideal.
Article about the elephant baby :
The Whole Herd Welcomes Whipsnade's Elephant Calf - ZooBorns
The Whole Herd Welcomes Whipsnade's Elephant Calf - ZooBorns
The elephant calf now has a name: Sam!
Some sad news:Retuculated giraffe Ina has passed away due to complications arising from a foot problem.
Regarding future investment, the zoo hopes to have the first phase of the new elephant housing (the cow barn) ready for Easter 2015. The new butterfly walk through is part of a 3-year development, and will cover the footprint of the Cloisters: butterflies 2015; Aquarium 2016, reptiles 2017. This development is designed to increase footfall during the winter months.
Some sad news:Retuculated giraffe Ina has passed away due to complications arising from a foot problem.
Regarding future investment, the zoo hopes to have the first phase of the new elephant housing (the cow barn) ready for Easter 2015. The new butterfly walk through is part of a 3-year development, and will cover the footprint of the Cloisters: butterflies 2015; Aquarium 2016, reptiles 2017. This development is designed to increase footfall during the winter months.
Jackwow
Well-Known Member
I'm hoping to visit next week for the first time. Is it a zoo, because your comment makes it sound more like a safari park?!
A sad loss indeed, particularly after the loss of her own female calf and its father in recent months. However this is countered by the two other females also producing female calves within the last twelve months and the arrival of a new young male unrelated to the four females (2 adults, 2 calves).
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I think his comment about traffic referred to the road approach to Whipsnade which is along narrow country roads and I think it was a Bank Holiday, a peak visiting time too...
Normally at other times there is no traffic congestion at all and you can access the park easily. Whipsnade is the country estate of London Zoo. Definately not a Safari Park. It is large and there are roads-you can take your car in to drive around for an extra(fairly considerable) charge but there are no drive through enclosures except the Asian Plains area. There are buses for pedestrian visitors you can catch at various places around the park but most of it is easily walkable for a fit person. The only exception is the Asian Plains section which is accessed only by vehicles( not sure if the buses go in there).One of my all-time favourite UK collections. Enjoy your visit but be prepared not to see very many birds or smaller mammals.
Reptile Boy97
Active Member
Do you have any more details regarding what is happening with aquarium and reptiles?
Sadly not, though the African dwarf crocs will be moving into the butterfly area. The aquarium will apparently be modelled on Hull's The Deep-I've never visited so I don't know what to expect!
Another unwelcome loss husbandry-wise (.. giraffe F).
Terry Farrell designed The Deep around one very large and deep tank. You take an escalator or lift to the top and then walk down a spiral route viewing the large tank from the top first, then through windows at different depths and finally through a tunnel at the bottom. There are also smaller tanks and galleries on the other side of the walkway. It cost £43 million as a Millenium project. I just can't imagine a building of that sort at Whipsnade, even on a much smaller scale.
Alan
Yes and they would be restricted as well in what they could build upwards.