What are their origins (wild-caught or captive-born) and age structure?
ZSL Whipsnade Zoo Whipsnade Zoo 2014 #1
- Thread starter BongoHardwood
- Start date
What are their origins (wild-caught or captive-born) and age structure?
The group members used to be listed on the Whipsnade website but that seems to have been superceded by other (less interesting!
) Chimp information. I found some details elsewhere though;Males; Nikkie. age? Dominant male.
Phil age 18 (mother Bonnie)
Grant age 18. Both were born the same day- to different mothers.
Elvis age 12. (mother Bonnie)
Females. Bonnie. Age? mother of Phil & Elvis above. Sister of Grant.
Koko. born Dudley (Pepe x Cherry). Age 41 approx.
'Koko' is the survivor of the old pair(the last two chimps from London) that escaped at Whipsnade a couple of years ago, when the male 'Jony' had to be shot when he was heading out of the grounds. After this she was added to the group.
Presumably all six are captive born( with the possible exception of Nikkie?) I have no idea what races they are or if ever tested for purity.
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
Absolutely. A huge amount of space has been given up over the last thirty or so years, and more has never been developed at all. There is certainly enough space at Whipsnade to keep both Wolves and Hunting Dogs, and I would argue that Geladas - hardy, terrestrial animals that they are - could easily be exhibited on the edge of the Downs. There is no need to make their acquisition dependent upon the Chimp House being vacated.
I would be sorry if Whipsnade did not keep at least one group of great ape; in the 1970s I believe that it was intended that it should keep three. As far as that Chimp group is concerned, four or five of those animals could live for another thirty years. I don't know what ZSL intend to do with them. To be fair, an awful lot of zoos give the impression of not knowing how to manage Chimps in the long run either.
Chimps at Whipsnade.
I also see no reason for the Chimps to leave- the housing is fine for them, particularly now since the interior has been enlarged, doing away with the previous ridiculously huge public area and contrastingly tiny original enclosures for the animals, and also the original small outside 'cage' has been revamped too and is a great improvement. I would prefer to see them add a few more adult females (like some of the male-less ones at Dudley that ZSL own anyway!) and allow breeding to form a larger, better balanced group. The current small group always looks rather lost to me, particularly in the very spacious and well equipped main outside area- they could easily hold a dozen or more there. Why not? I suspect they are compromised by EEP 'recommendations' about only breeding from West African Chimps, and probably these are mixed-race animals.
Geladas would give them a second large primate species and again, I agree that it wouldn't be difficult or very expensive to give them a good enclosure- just model it on what Dudley(or Edinburgh) have done for this species.
I also see no reason for the Chimps to leave- the housing is fine for them, particularly now since the interior has been enlarged, doing away with the previous ridiculously huge public area and contrastingly tiny original enclosures for the animals, and also the original small outside 'cage' has been revamped too and is a great improvement. I would prefer to see them add a few more adult females (like some of the male-less ones at Dudley that ZSL own anyway!) and allow breeding to form a larger, better balanced group. The current small group always looks rather lost to me, particularly in the very spacious and well equipped main outside area- they could easily hold a dozen or more there. Why not? I suspect they are compromised by EEP 'recommendations' about only breeding from West African Chimps, and probably these are mixed-race animals.
Geladas would give them a second large primate species and again, I agree that it wouldn't be difficult or very expensive to give them a good enclosure- just model it on what Dudley(or Edinburgh) have done for this species.
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On long term future for the chimps is dependent upon …: the EEP - thanks in no undue part to new tests can now ID more of the wild caught or captive gene pool to subspecies - is looking at least to maintain a further subspecies of chimp along pure-bred lines.
Allthough, as it is … 4.2 chimps is not much for a chimp troupe. Breeding seems to have been intentionally compromised too (!???).
Allthough, as it is … 4.2 chimps is not much for a chimp troupe. Breeding seems to have been intentionally compromised too (!???).
crested seriema
Active Member
hunting dogs
In an old guide it mentioned that Whipsnade used to have Painted or African Hunting Dogs in the 1960s, also Racoonlike Dogs, the former had quite a large enclosure!
In an old guide it mentioned that Whipsnade used to have Painted or African Hunting Dogs in the 1960s, also Racoonlike Dogs, the former had quite a large enclosure!
The Hunting Dogs at Whipsnade occupied a triangular shaped open grass run (divided into two sections), which was situated on the right somewhere just inside what is now the entrance to the Asian Plains drive through. There were normally about five dogs- they may have bred but I never saw any puppies there.
That's what I said above- they always look rather 'lost' in the very large enclosure. The details I found included a statement 'we no longer breed Chimpanzees' so you are correct there- not diffiult as there is only one breeding-age female anyway(Bonnie) and she is presumably contracepted.
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
Like most of the vanished Whipsnade carnivore accommodation(the old Lion and Tiger dens excepted the Hunting Dogs' pens were pretty grim, and would never have been tolerated for as long at London Zoo.
I have a terrible feeling that in the 1960s the same accommodation held hyenas - all three species...
One of my abiding zoo memories, as I have mentioned in an old thread, is watching this enclosure fairly early on a very frosty winter morning at least 40 years ago. I was the only visitor within sight and I stood next to the keeper with his bicycle. We watched in silence as the female dog emerged from the underground den with a tiny dead puppy in her mouth. She slowly and deliberately proceeded to eat it. It was a strange experience, very moving and rather horrible, but also somehow reassuring because it was exactly what she would have done in the wild.
The keeper said that he thought that the pup might well have died from cold in the night: although there was no way of knowing for certain. I expect that the pup would have had litter mates, but I doubt if any would have survived. The old enclosure was in a rather exposed and open situation (even by Whipsnade standards) but, as I said earlier in this thread, I'm not sure that this species is really suited to Whipsnade. There are other dog species such as dhole, raccoon dogs, coyote and various foxes which might do better.
Alan
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
Well, the Hunting Dogs at Port Lympne seem to do well, housed on the brow of a pretty open hillside. And the species has bred at Edinburgh, where I challenge anybody who isn't a Musk-Ox to feel warm.
Agree with you about Dhole, though!
Is there any reason why both couldn't be kept, and pure European Wolves into the bargain?
Communityzoo
Well-Known Member
I agree with the comments about Whipsade's chimps, and feel they should either reinvigorate the group somewhat (on welfare grounds), or relocate them into an existing group elsewhere.
I realise the words are interchangeable, but I think of static, ageing small groups as 'chimps', but when seen in a dynamic and socially cohesive troop I see 'chimpanzees'. It would be very gratifying to see research into the differing levels of association and social organising in various captive groups of this species, with some kind of a benchmark for optimum activity levels. Its one thing to provide food-based enrichment but, as many on here have stated, there is a world of difference between a group of six adults and a breeding group of 20+ individuals. I think it is wrong to prevent all breeding in certain species, when limited breeding can still prevent a population increase but maintain a good intergenerational balance. I think it is a shame that the UK or European population is managed genetically rather than socially (in terms of pure/generic, not in terms of inbreeding), and I think it would be wrong for ZSL to just hold these last individuals as they gradually die out. Maybe the example to be followed here is Chester or Edinburgh.
Additionally, if groups are allowed limited breeding but with the intention of reducing numbers still over time, then this presents a case for combining remaining groups at strategic points, difficult as this may be it is achievable. I suspect that Whipsnade, Dudley, Twycross and Colwyn Bay don't really intend to hold their chimps long-term, but that is still an awful lot of years in which these individuals will be slowly ageing in ever dwindling groups. I don't think that's an ideal way for a zoo chimp to grow old, and ultimately results in situations such as Drayton Manor or Africa Alive, where solitary individuals are argued as being too old to relocate. Its strange to consider that in 2014 we have chimps living on their own in the UK. I suspect ZSL may even be planning an eventual relocation of the chimps, but are possibly unable to do so until certain dominant or elderly individuals have passed away if any are deemed too risky for moving/introduction into a new group. Of course, I very much doubt anywhere without an existing group would ever take them and, politically, there's no way any facilities associated with 'rescue' would be considered. Blair Drummond is a very interesting case, as they are the only example in recent years of a collection willing to absorb the remaining individuals of a defunct non subspecific group (from Flamingoland) that I am aware of. Prior to this it would have been Dudley perhaps?
I realise the words are interchangeable, but I think of static, ageing small groups as 'chimps', but when seen in a dynamic and socially cohesive troop I see 'chimpanzees'. It would be very gratifying to see research into the differing levels of association and social organising in various captive groups of this species, with some kind of a benchmark for optimum activity levels. Its one thing to provide food-based enrichment but, as many on here have stated, there is a world of difference between a group of six adults and a breeding group of 20+ individuals. I think it is wrong to prevent all breeding in certain species, when limited breeding can still prevent a population increase but maintain a good intergenerational balance. I think it is a shame that the UK or European population is managed genetically rather than socially (in terms of pure/generic, not in terms of inbreeding), and I think it would be wrong for ZSL to just hold these last individuals as they gradually die out. Maybe the example to be followed here is Chester or Edinburgh.
Additionally, if groups are allowed limited breeding but with the intention of reducing numbers still over time, then this presents a case for combining remaining groups at strategic points, difficult as this may be it is achievable. I suspect that Whipsnade, Dudley, Twycross and Colwyn Bay don't really intend to hold their chimps long-term, but that is still an awful lot of years in which these individuals will be slowly ageing in ever dwindling groups. I don't think that's an ideal way for a zoo chimp to grow old, and ultimately results in situations such as Drayton Manor or Africa Alive, where solitary individuals are argued as being too old to relocate. Its strange to consider that in 2014 we have chimps living on their own in the UK. I suspect ZSL may even be planning an eventual relocation of the chimps, but are possibly unable to do so until certain dominant or elderly individuals have passed away if any are deemed too risky for moving/introduction into a new group. Of course, I very much doubt anywhere without an existing group would ever take them and, politically, there's no way any facilities associated with 'rescue' would be considered. Blair Drummond is a very interesting case, as they are the only example in recent years of a collection willing to absorb the remaining individuals of a defunct non subspecific group (from Flamingoland) that I am aware of. Prior to this it would have been Dudley perhaps?
Well, the Hunting Dogs at Port Lympne seem to do well, housed on the brow of a pretty open hillside. And the species has bred at Edinburgh, where I challenge anybody who isn't a Musk-Ox to feel warm.
Agree with you about Dhole, though!
I can only second keeping all three canids!
As for chimps / chimpanzees: I agree fully with the management along genetic lineage and would applaud if a second (sub-)species of chimpanzee where to be established as either ESB or EEP (I personally think that situation is not far off). If and when the latter happens, one will slowly see a resurgence of chimpanzee colonies all over in European zoos.
At the moment we see too much mixed origins or unknown chimps in disjunct groups which is exactly caused by a past policy of not breeding conscientiously or ignorant/indiscriminate of individual chimpanzee genetics and individual histories. That sad state of affairs once also reflected badly on giraffe, tiger, leopard and lion (conservation) breeding with the net result of zoo mix species (without any relevance to wild state conspecifics).
Only when we are at that stage and having sorted the hybrid/zoo admixage chimps from true (sub-)specific chimpanzees can we move on to a state of functional and social family groups … and finally back to (conservation) breeding of chimpanzees.
That is the captive reality for now. So, until the captive history of Whipsnade chimps has been sorted can a decision be forthcoming on a more positive movement in their maintenance or husbandry at Whipsnade.
Similarly and alas, one should not forget that there still languish literally hundreds, even in the thousands of chimpanzees of known provenance in African rescue centers that at the moment remain a sad genetic end. If those chimpanzees that remain non-releasable could become a source of chimpanzees of known origins to replenish captive colonies that would be most welcome.
The last bit save for several very promising rescue and release schemes, particurlarly in West Africa (e.g. Gabon and Cameroon) are chimpanzees that look very unlikely to ever leave any of the rescue centers. Talking of a sorry state of affairs ….!!!
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Communityzoo
Well-Known Member
I could be wrong but isn't the Whipsnade escarpment north-facing? Not that I really think this cannot be mitigated in enclosure design. I don't necessarily believe the location of Whipsnade would prevent success with painted dogs, with cheetah in mind Whipsnade had breakthrough breeding success when nobody was able to breed them, and have the space and off-exhibt potential to replicate this with wild dogs.
Given the often large litters, wild dogs seem to be relatively common in zoos but breeding still appears very limited to certain establishments. For Port Lympne and WMSP to be the two main UK collections with any degree of success suggest to me there is an issue of distance from visual/olfactory/auditory stressors that may be key to successful rearing of pups. Others may disagree, and I have never visited WMSP so accept it may have been luck with the individuals they had.
Well, the Hunting Dogs at Port Lympne seem to do well, housed on the brow of a pretty open hillside. And the species has bred at Edinburgh, where I challenge anybody who isn't a Musk-Ox to feel warm.
Agree with you about Dhole, though!
There is absolutely no reason why Whipsnade could'nt keep/continue with these species...and bring in plenty of other fauna.
What needs to change is the DESIRE and the WILL to do something with the collection and the estate. I feel that, until there is a significant attitude change within the ZSL hierarchy, then nothing will be done at Whipsnade. It will just be left to meander along with a pedestrian assortment while its rivals grow and flourish.
Agree 100%, Whipsnade could easily be the best mammal collection in the UK, if the will was there from ZSL. Sadly lack of space & modern requirements will always prevent London from ever being in that category again, so maybe after the next multi-million exhibit has been built, they should give Whipsnade some funds for development. A dozen species could probably be added at Whipsnade for the price of one new exhibit at London for an existing species.
True enough. We tend to talk (hypothetically of course) about one species replacing another at Whipsnade, whereas because of all that space, they could quite easily add more species without losing any e.g. three species of Canids could easily be maintained, not just one. Same with the larger Primates.
It is, and can be very cold too. But the Hunting Dogs (and Cheetahs currently) lived on the other side of the zoo on the 'dip' slope which is more sheltered.
The location of Port Lympne always reminds me of Whipsnade rather- both are situated on Downland sites, though Whipsnade is mostly on more of a plateau, and Port Lymne more a high slope. The Hunting Dogs at PL fall into two groups, those in the main part of the park( in a lower, more sheltered area) and those in the Coombe Farm area, which is perhaps the most exposed.
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