ZSL Whipsnade Zoo Whipsnade Zoo 2014 #1

[gentle lemur]

Given the often large litters, wild dogs seem to be relatively common in zoos but breeding still appears very limited to certain establishments.

The breeding of these dogs has to be carefully managed in zoos. They certainly can have very large litters; but they are not easy to house (remember the appalling accident at Pittsburgh in 2012) or to manage, as seemingly stable packs can suddenly start fighting viciously. If euthanasia of a single giraffe can cause a worldwide controversy, think what would happen if a zoo found itself with a dozen puppies of an endangered species which could not be accommodated safely.
Chester established their pack with related animals so they cannot allow them to breed until they are assigned unrelated females. I expect other collections are in similar situations.

Alan

 

[Tim May]

In an old guide it mentioned that Whipsnade used to have Painted or African Hunting Dogs in the 1960s, also Racoonlike Dogs, the former had quite a large enclosure!

The Hunting Dogs at Whipsnade occupied a triangular shaped open grass run (divided into two sections), which was situated on the right somewhere just inside what is now the entrance to the Asian Plains drive through. There were normally about five dogs- they may have bred but I never saw any puppies there.

Yes, I well remember seeing the hunting dogs in that enclosure many times.

If you check the earlier guides you’ll seen that that enclosure once housed hyaena; the guide for 1965 lists three species:- spotted hyaenas, striped hyaenas and brown hyaenas.

 

[pipaluk]

Yes, I well remember seeing the hunting dogs in that enclosure many times.

If you check the earlier guides you’ll seen that that enclosure once housed hyaena; the guide for 1965 lists three species:- spotted hyaenas, striped hyaenas and brown hyaenas.

Would be great if they held just one of those three again, and no reason why they couldn't!

 

[Pertinax]

If you check the earlier guides you’ll seen that that enclosure once housed hyaena; the guide for 1965 lists three species:- spotted hyaenas, striped hyaenas and brown hyaenas.

Never knew that and never saw them there-it must have been a time when I didn't visit for some years. That must have been a pretty unique display for the UK.

 

[Tim May]

Never knew that and never saw them there-it must have been a time when I didn't visit for some years. That must have been a pretty unique display for the UK.

I didn’t see them there either but all three species are listed in the 1965 guidebook.

And I was reliably informed by somebody who did see them that the hunting dog enclosure was divided into three sections with a different species of hyaena in each.

 

[Pertinax]

.

And I was reliably informed by somebody who did see them that the hunting dog enclosure was divided into three sections with a different species of hyaena in each.

I seem to remember that enclosure(when it contained the Dogs) as already being divided into a two thirds/one third ratio, but maybe it was already divided into three, or they later added an extra division to make three enclosures out of it for the Hyaenas.

Do you know how long they had each of the three species?

 

[Ericthered]

being a employee of the ZSL London, they could do so much up there but they obviously need to keep the Public coming in as they are a charity, when it comes to ungulates london has a much better successes rate on breeding as the staff that work on the mammal section have been there a wile , i work on mammals north there and the giraffe keeper has been at London for nearly 50 years had has managed to breed i think it was 46 hybrid giraffes loosing only a few where as the records show that Whipsnade have not done as well in the same period its not all down to space etc its about knowledge and the keeper know what to do,sadly london dose not want to get a bull in for the 3 females witch i think is a shame and the 2 guys that know how to deal with giraffe calves and any other problem with breeding are not to far out from retiring so they can not train younger staff for these situations in the future if they decide to get a bull in as they behave a lot different to a doe

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

All this discussion over the desire/need to see more species, especially at Whipsnade, is interesting but I would argue that the first concern for any zoo would be the welfare of its current species.

I am not suggesting the the ZSL does not have much money, but perhaps it doesn't have the finance to facilitate more species. despite not being alive then, I am aware that Whipsnade had more varied species in the 60', 70' and 80's but some (Polar Bears, Jaguars etc) were in enclosures that would not be acceptable today. surely it shoukd be quality not quantity?

I also feel that the money the ZSL does have is been used to do much needed improvements in London such as the tigers and the new lion plans. who knows, the macqaues, spider monkeys and servals may well end up at Whipsnade. ultimately the welfare of its current species should always be the main focus for any zoo instead of showing animals for the sake of it.

 

[Panthera1981]

All this discussion over the desire/need to see more species, especially at Whipsnade, is interesting but I would argue that the first concern for any zoo would be the welfare of its current species.

I am not suggesting the the ZSL does not have much money, but perhaps it doesn't have the finance to facilitate more species. despite not being alive then, I am aware that Whipsnade had more varied species in the 60', 70' and 80's but some (Polar Bears, Jaguars etc) were in enclosures that would not be acceptable today. surely it shoukd be quality not quantity?

I also feel that the money the ZSL does have is been used to do much needed improvements in London such as the tigers and the new lion plans. who knows, the macqaues, spider monkeys and servals may well end up at Whipsnade. ultimately the welfare of its current species should always be the main focus for any zoo instead of showing animals for the sake of it.

I agree that welfare is paramount to any collection, thank God the days are gone that you should see any animal in abhorrent conditions. And of course London needs improving.

BUT, the fact remains. Whipsnade has the acreage and potential to be an international breeding centre for a variety of endangered species, something that London can no longer sadly facilitate.

I just think that ZSL is currently ignoring an opportunity here. And you only have to look at Chester to see a fantastic example of quality AND quantity!

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

I agree that welfare is paramount to any collection, thank God the days are gone that you should see any animal in abhorrent conditions. And of course London needs improving.

BUT, the fact remains. Whipsnade has the acreage and potential to be an international breeding centre for a variety of endangered species, something that London can no longer sadly facilitate.

I just think that ZSL is currently ignoring an opportunity here. And you only have to look at Chester to see a fantastic example of quality AND quantity!

I do take that all on board, but Chester can just focus on itself (unless I'm mistaken). the amount of money it can spend is shown by its massive islands project. the ZSL has two sites, one in need of vast improvement (which it has done in the last few years) and one that is perfectly good in its current guise.

My one experience of Chester was not great (very, very wet) but I do understand that it is one of the leading zoos in the country, however just because a zoo has massive amount if species in multi millions enclosures does not make a better zoo.

I'm sure that the ZSL would love to have there own 'spirit of the jaguar' and 'Tsavo rhino experiance' but I don't think that is an option when it has two sites to look after. Besides just because an enclosure cost loads of money does not make it better.

 

[IanRRobinson]

I do take that all on board, but Chester can just focus on itself (unless I'm mistaken). the amount of money it can spend is shown by its massive islands project. the ZSL has two sites, one in need of vast improvement (which it has done in the last few years) and one that is perfectly good in its current guise.

My one experience of Chester was not great (very, very wet) but I do understand that it is one of the leading zoos in the country, however just because a zoo has massive amount if species in multi millions enclosures does not make a better zoo.

I'm sure that the ZSL would love to have there own 'spirit of the jaguar' and 'Tsavo rhino experiance' but I don't think that is an option when it has two sites to look after. Besides just because an enclosure cost loads of money does not make it better.

We are skirting around something here: ZSL has chosen to build expensive exhibits at London for high profile, easily marketed species at London at the expense of maintaining , never mind enriching, the diversity of both sites.

Besides just because an enclosure cost loads of money does not make it better

Absolutely! This was something that the late, great Gerald Durrell preached for decades, and which ZSL have wilfully refused to take on board.

Ultimately, ZSL zoos will be what those who can wield influence within the Society want. If those who join in these threads and obviously care about both collections, and the Society's work - its conservation work overseas, its research within the Institute and its peerless library - then get involved! Become a Fellow; attend meetings; make your voice heard.

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

We are skirting around something here: ZSL has chosen to build expensive exhibits at London for high profile, easily marketed species at London at the expense of maintaining , never mind enriching, the diversity of both sites.

Absolutely! This was something that the late, great Gerald Durrell preached for decades, and which ZSL have wilfully refused to take on board.

Ultimately, ZSL zoos will be what those who can wield influence within the Society want. If those who join in these threads and obviously care about both collections, and the Society's work - its conservation work overseas, its research within the Institute and its peerless library - then get involved! Become a Fellow; attend meetings; make your voice heard.

i assume becoming a fellow costs money? I am a member, just don't think I have the money to be a fellow!

I really do believe the money that the ZSL has is best spent at the moment on London, I love all the old building etc, but the new tiger enclosure for example is a million times better then the old one.

as you say the ZSL does many amazing things with its its conservation work overseas, its Institute and library and so there is much more to it then regular visitors would know. you could argue that as the zoo's are the public face of the ZSL there needs to be a degree of making the whole society attractive with animals the general public need to see. a zoo's job is of course being a centre of conservation and looking after endangered animals, but they do also need to bring people in and make money.

all our debating about our desires for both collections etc is great and enjoyable, but the ZSL will know much more then we will and I guess everyone (big supporters/critics) need to trust that the ZSL has the best of intentions for its current species and the future of the ZSL and its sites.

 

[IanRRobinson]

i assume becoming a fellow costs money? I am a member, just don't think I have the money to be a fellow!

I really do believe the money that the ZSL has is best spent at the moment on London, I love all the old building etc, but the new tiger enclosure for example is a million times better then the old one.

as you say the ZSL does many amazing things with its its conservation work overseas, its Institute and library and so there is much more to it then regular visitors would know. you could argue that as the zoo's are the public face of the ZSL there needs to be a degree of making the whole society attractive with animals the general public need to see. a zoo's job is of course being a centre of conservation and looking after endangered animals, but they do also need to bring people in and make money.

all our debating about our desires for both collections etc is great and enjoyable, but the ZSL will know much more then we will and I guess everyone (big supporters/critics) need to trust that the ZSL has the best of intentions for its current species and the future of the ZSL and its sites.

Become a Fellow of ZSL | Zoological Society of London (ZSL)

ajmc, if you are a student then fellowship would cost you £34. If a recent graduate (or over 65) then it costs £58.50.

the ZSL will know much more then we will

Do you believe that any body in the world is ever capable of perfect wisdom? The government of the UK, USA, Germany? Decisions are made by those who have agendas. Sometimes worthy, sometimes admirable, but they are driven by value judgements.

At the moment ZSL seems to believe that the royal road to salvation is to be found by expensive new exhibits , giving a great deal of space (compare London's tiger exhibit with those at Chester, Howletts or Colchester) for high profile species. There are those of us who think that they'd do just as well (if not better) by maintaining a larger animal collection housed more simply.

 

[sooty mangabey]

all our debating about our desires for both collections etc is great and enjoyable, but the ZSL will know much more then we will and I guess everyone (big supporters/critics) need to trust that the ZSL has the best of intentions for its current species and the future of the ZSL and its sites.

I have enjoyed this discussion from afar, but not contributed. However, this last comment is such a red rag to Ian's particular bull that I am eagerly anticipating his response!

For what it's worth, my opinion is that the policy of building impressive, visitor attracting exhibits for headlines species in London has been the right one. However, I just wish that those headlines exhibits were backed up with smaller supporting exhibits: aviaries of Indonesian birds alongside the Tigers and so on. That they are not, speaks, I think, of a lack of real engagement with The display of animals amongst some at the zoo. This is mirrored at Whipsnade. For example, The fairly recent lion enclosure there – I forget its name – is done well I think, but how much better would it be if it had other things alongside it that were appropriate (and, given the Tanzanian theming of the area, why on earth are meerkats included – put some banded mongooses in there, please!).

I think the real frustration that many of us feel with Whipsnade is that the potential is so vast. While many of the recent developments have been good, or even excellent, one could easily foresee a park with so many natural benefits (how many millions of people live within an hour's drive?) being truly outstanding. The cost of increasing the collection would be high – someone would need to look after that increased collection: salaries represent the major part of any zoo's outlay, and the size of those salaries has increased hugely since the 1960s and 1970s – but, nonetheless, I think many of us feel that ambition would be rewarded by increased numbers through the gates. It's a "build it and they will come" thing. The lesson from Europe seems to indicate this is so, with zoos in Belgium, France, and elsewhere receiving huge numbers of visitors when they have increased their collection. Some impala are a lovely start – but it is only a start!

 

[sooty mangabey]

I have enjoyed this discussion from afar, but not contributed. However, this last comment is such a red rag to Ian's particular bull that I am eagerly anticipating his response!

....and he beat me to it!

 

[Panthera1981]

I have enjoyed this discussion from afar, but not contributed. However, this last comment is such a red rag to Ian's particular bull that I am eagerly anticipating his response!

For what it's worth, my opinion is that the policy of building impressive, visitor attracting exhibits for headlines species in London has been the right one. However, I just wish that those headlines exhibits were backed up with smaller supporting exhibits: aviaries of Indonesian birds alongside the Tigers and so on. That they are not, speaks, I think, of a lack of real engagement with The display of animals amongst some at the zoo. This is mirrored at Whipsnade. For example, The fairly recent lion enclosure there – I forget its name – is done well I think, but how much better would it be if it had other things alongside it that were appropriate (and, given the Tanzanian theming of the area, why on earth are meerkats included – put some banded mongooses in there, please!).

I think the real frustration that many of us feel with Whipsnade is that the potential is so vast. While many of the recent developments have been good, or even excellent, one could easily foresee a park with so many natural benefits (how many millions of people live within an hour's drive?) being truly outstanding. The cost of increasing the collection would be high – someone would need to look after that increased collection: salaries represent the major part of any zoo's outlay, and the size of those salaries has increased hugely since the 1960s and 1970s – but, nonetheless, I think many of us feel that ambition would be rewarded by increased numbers through the gates. It's a "build it and they will come" thing. The lesson from Europe seems to indicate this is so, with zoos in Belgium, France, and elsewhere receiving huge numbers of visitors when they have increased their collection. Some impala are a lovely start – but it is only a start!

I believe that Whipsnade only acquired meerkats because the benefactor who named one of the elephant calves ( the now deceased " Donaldson" I think) wanted them. Prior to this, plans were in place to acquire serval. Money talks!

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

Become a Fellow of ZSL | Zoological Society of London (ZSL)

ajmc, if you are a student then fellowship would cost you £34. If a recent graduate (or over 65) then it costs £58.50.

Do you believe that any body in the world is ever capable of perfect wisdom? The government of the UK, USA, Germany? Decisions are made by those who have agendas. Sometimes worthy, sometimes admirable, but they are driven by value judgements.

At the moment ZSL seems to believe that the royal road to salvation is to be found by expensive new exhibits , giving a great deal of space (compare London's tiger exhibit with those at Chester, Howletts or Colchester) for high profile species. There are those of us who think that they'd do just as well (if not better) by maintaining a larger animal collection housed more simply.

Im not claiming that people in power have 100% perfecr wisdom, but I do believe they have more knowledge on certain aspects then the general public. the idea that the ZSL has no clue is one that I dispute (not saying you said that, just what I feel). I also feel londons new tiger enclosure is one of the best I have seen. also £50 plus is way to expensive for me!

I don't know how to quote two different posts at once, but sooty mangabey you make great points, but perhaps the zoo feels as much as it woud like to, it does not have the money to do other smaller side enclosures. I also assume (perhaps wrongly) that the general public of the Bedfordshire/Hertfordshire area would much prefer to see something like meerkats (down to the mildly irritating adverts) then a serval which to them may look just like there cat at home.

I remember in the late 90's (I think) that in a couple of years they opened/started new lemur, elephant, hippo, rhino and tamarin enclosures and at the same time bear mountain was opened in London. My feeling is, and I trust the ZSL 100% in this, that once the money is spent on updating London (with the awesome sounding lion enclosure) then they can look to new things at Whipsnade. In my opinion its best to make what you have the best before something new is added.

also the red rag to the bull, I didn't mean to annoy anyone, its just my views on a society and zoos that im very passionate about.

 

[Pertinax]

For example, The fairly recent lion enclosure there – I forget its name –

'Lions of the Serengeti' (or something similar.)

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

'Lions of the Serengeti' (or something similar.)

Lions of the Serengeti is correct!

 

[sooty mangabey]

also £50 plus is way to expensive for me!

.

I think fellowship of ZSL is actually one of the great zoo bargains - for that sum you get entry to the two zoos for yourself and one other, car entry to Whipsnade, parking at London Zoo, access to the library, and a discount in the zoo restaurants (meaning that the food is just very expensive, rather than exceptionally expensive).

perhaps the zoo feels as much as it woud like to, it does not have the money to do other smaller side enclosures. I also assume (perhaps wrongly) that the general public of the Bedfordshire/Hertfordshire area would much prefer to see something like meerkats (down to the mildly irritating adverts) then a serval which to them may look just like there cat at home.

Absolutely - two fair points. The cost, not just of building but also of running extra exhibits cannot be overlooked. And it would be a brave director of a mainstream zoo who did not have meerkats. That said, banded mongooses (or servals) (or both) would fit much better with the Serengeti theme - which is rendered a nonsense by the inclusion of meerkats.

once the money is spent on updating London (with the awesome sounding lion enclosure) then they can look to new things at Whipsnade. In my opinion its best to make what you have the best before something new is added.

Yes - but I don't think London (or any zoo) will ever be 'finished'. There are an almost infinite number of projects to complete, so the time when the focus can be wholly on Whipsnade will probably never come. As always, balance is needed!

also the red rag to the bull, I didn't mean to annoy anyone, its just my views on a society and zoos that im very passionate about.

No need to apologise! As always, passionately-held and well-argued opinions are what this site is all about. And Ian's views on the ZSL management are very passionately-held and very well-argued!