Do you mean they are only vulnerable under a certain age? Do you know what the age is?
ZSL Whipsnade Zoo Whipsnades new baby Elephant
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Do you mean they are only vulnerable under a certain age? Do you know what the age is?
The situation with the herpes virus seems very complicated to me . There is quite a bit on it in the elephant.se web-site including UK deaths . As well as Aneena and Donaldson at Whipsnade , Sittang at Port Lympne and two still-births in 2005 were from the virus . It seems that stress such as weaning or pregnancy/birth in the herd can bring it on
The thread started 12.2.2009 ' EEHV at St. Louis ' links to an article by the 'In Defense of Animals ' group . This suggests that certain US zoos are hot-spots for spreading the disease , one of these being Rosamund Gifford , where Emmett was born . The implication is that a female elephant can be infected by a carrier bull during mating and subsequently pass the virus to the calf . Not certain if this is generally accepted , certainly nothing about this in the elephant.se article . If it is the case then I cannot see how Whipsnade can continue to breed with Emmett .
Unfortunately this death will play into the hands of those against keeping and breeding elephants in captivity , will be interesting to see if the national press pick it up . The only mention I can remember about Aneena's death from the virus by ZSl was in their Annual Report .
Must be very distressing for both the elephant herd and keepers at Whipsnade .
The thread started 12.2.2009 ' EEHV at St. Louis ' links to an article by the 'In Defense of Animals ' group . This suggests that certain US zoos are hot-spots for spreading the disease , one of these being Rosamund Gifford , where Emmett was born . The implication is that a female elephant can be infected by a carrier bull during mating and subsequently pass the virus to the calf . Not certain if this is generally accepted , certainly nothing about this in the elephant.se article . If it is the case then I cannot see how Whipsnade can continue to breed with Emmett .
Unfortunately this death will play into the hands of those against keeping and breeding elephants in captivity , will be interesting to see if the national press pick it up . The only mention I can remember about Aneena's death from the virus by ZSl was in their Annual Report .
Must be very distressing for both the elephant herd and keepers at Whipsnade .
It is not yet known how tthe virus is passed between elephants. I am very sure mating is not the only way to pass, and all elephants in Whipsnade must have been in contact with it and I guess all or most carry it now. So it doesn`t matter that they continue with the orinigal carrier. If Emmet really is the only one of the original herd to have carried the herpes virus. Some researchers suggest that it is very common among asian elephants (wild ones too) and that most if not all animals carry one of the different strains.
As far as I know there is no age limit - calves between 2 and 5 seem to be most in danger, Donaldson was actually a bit too young. But elephants born in Houston zoo have died much later, Kiba (died after his transfer to Berlin) was 10, and female Kimba was even older.
Herpes outbreaks are probably related to stress, and in this case, I am not too surprised that Whipsnade is having a death again because of the circus-style training and discipline the calves have to endure from a very young age.
As far as I know there is no age limit - calves between 2 and 5 seem to be most in danger, Donaldson was actually a bit too young. But elephants born in Houston zoo have died much later, Kiba (died after his transfer to Berlin) was 10, and female Kimba was even older.
Herpes outbreaks are probably related to stress, and in this case, I am not too surprised that Whipsnade is having a death again because of the circus-style training and discipline the calves have to endure from a very young age.
The herpes link to stress is purely speculation. Once herpes is present within a herd it isn't possible to cure it, only treat it. Even if Emmet was the original source it would not be possible to replace him as he has mated with the herd and they are likely to also be infected. Your linking of herpes to stress is speculative as is the description of the training as circus-like (I have only seen this description on the bornfree website describing the elephant demonstration years ago). Whipsnade does promote open and limited contact between keepers and elephants and yes this is easier to start when they are younger. In the long term this greatly reduces the stress of sedation or anaethesia when doing routine vetinarian procedures. Human children are subjected to routine and mild discipline too - it would be subjective to say that it is stressful, I'm sure my 5 year old would love to do as he please but it isn't happening!
"Even if Emmet was the original source it would not be possible to replace him as he has mated with the herd and they are likely to also be infected."
I agree with this, but I fear we have to disagree about the dominance/circus style training and about the effects this can have on young elephants. By the way, elephants can be trained totally stress-free in protected contact, which will also eliminate the need to knock them down for medical treatments.
I agree with this, but I fear we have to disagree about the dominance/circus style training and about the effects this can have on young elephants. By the way, elephants can be trained totally stress-free in protected contact, which will also eliminate the need to knock them down for medical treatments.
This danger of Herpes virus must have an impact on the exchange of animals between captive groups. For example; Chester have been very fortunate in so far as there has been no occurrence in their group. Obviously there will be never be any exchange of animals between these two groups now, at least from Whipsnade to Chester.
And wasn't Emmett from Whipsnade also used to AI the pregnant Twycross female Norjahan so she may be carrying it now ?
And wasn't Emmett from Whipsnade also used to AI the pregnant Twycross female Norjahan so she may be carrying it now ?
taun
Well-Known Member
And wasn't Emmett from Whipsnade also used to AI the pregnant Twycross female Norjahan so she may be carrying it now ?
I think also that Zoos don’t seem to test new born for herpes, if they did so it can be treat (not cured) but could get them through the early stages of their life.
Unfortunately the captive population could not cut these groups from the breeding program, just better management of this issue could help reduce fatalities.
Stress could well be a factor, as it can make any animal more susceptible to illness (living proof here). Better animal management might well lower this (and testing whilst in quarantine, maybe).
As for EEHV being a reason not to keep elephants in captivity-sheep and cattle get scrapie and BSE, both of which can be fatal or lead to death-should we stop keeping farm animals because of this? Disease is part of life, and it's tragic when it leads to a death, but I don't think it should be a reason not to keep elephants.
I'm fairly sure I've read cases of wild elephants getting EEHV too (am not sure if there have been any deaths because of it).
As for EEHV being a reason not to keep elephants in captivity-sheep and cattle get scrapie and BSE, both of which can be fatal or lead to death-should we stop keeping farm animals because of this? Disease is part of life, and it's tragic when it leads to a death, but I don't think it should be a reason not to keep elephants.
I'm fairly sure I've read cases of wild elephants getting EEHV too (am not sure if there have been any deaths because of it).
I can't see any connection between these either, but the anti-zoo lobbyists do come up with some bizarre rationales in their attempts to discredit keeping elephants and other species in captivity.
Its a decision between the enrichment that goes along with having free conatact and allowing the elephants to exercise in the freedom of the park and browse the woodland and the loss of this if they only had protected contact. The whole subject of elephant training is subjective to personal beliefs, however I believed Whipsnade had moved away from "circus style" training ie teaching its elephants to entertain and instead where just encouraging naturalstic behaviours or for medical procedures. I haven't been involved with the park for about seven years but do still have contacts there, so therefore my comments were based on what I've been told rather than firsthand, perhaps you have witnessed otherwise recently Yassa?
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
taun
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the link. Very interesting and concerning too. How many more zoo herds, such as Whipsnade's are going to have their breeding efforts repeatedly compromised by this I wonder? So far they have lost two out of the four calves born which is a heavy loss to bear, particularly in a species with such slow reproductive rate, and it seems there's no guarantee the other two calves are 'safe' at any particular age though I guess they are inoculated for it. It also seems this virus was the final 'nail in the coffin' for Asian Elephant keeping at Port Lympne.
taun
Well-Known Member
Just a good management may help the problem I.E. screening of new born elephants making it easier to treat early if the case is required.
What is interesting is how it seems to 'strike' certain calves, but not others born at different times in the same group -as at Whipsnade- and I hope I am not tempting fate by saying that...
taun
Well-Known Member
What is interesting is how it seems to 'strike' certain calves, but not others born at different times in the same group -as at Whipsnade- and I hope I am not tempting fate by saying that...
I gather its like other illness, certain animals are more sceptical just like in humans, as adult elephants can be carriers.
I`ve seen the show and the elephants do a lot of tricks which you`d see in a circus too - standiing on the hind legs, sitting with the front legs up in the air, walking trunk-to-tail. I asked a keeper about these tricks and he was proud of them and even told me that a young female (Karishma?) could do the headstand too but that they were only doing it in the barn with no visitors present. The walks through the park consist of trunk-to-tail walking, certainly, and this is not what I would call natural behavoir neither. A lot of elephant people think it is stressful because elephants bite each other in the tail during fights, and therefore they don`t like it when another ele takes the tail. What I disliked most was the way the keepers handled the elephants - it was like in the army, harsh voices, and the bullhook was used all the time to poke the eles. I had the impression that it was impossible for the eles to react fast enough to avoid being poked. During the walk, a keeper was using his bullhook very rough on one of the elephants and from his, it had serveral small wounds on the face.
karishma arrived after I left, I know the demonstration was stopped for a couple of years. Trunk to tail was always used to stop the elephants becoming distracted along the public walkways or roads (prevented theft from pushchairs or cars!) they were allowed free browsing on top of the downs. I never witnessed excessive use of the bullhook, in fact it was used infrequently. I have no idea of the set up now or of the new demonstration, I was hoping what you had witnessed was years ago, no such luck by the sound of it. Unfortunately I have only been back to the uk at christmas so not seen the demonstration or even the elephants being exercised. Moving back to the UK later this year so hopefully that will change.
Its interesting you should mention this as I have noticed it too(and previously at London Zoo) I don't know if it is common practice in many European zoos but I have seen trained elephants in both Thailand and in Northern India and do not recollect any commands being given with raised voices. Communication was more subtle and the elephants and mahouts in those areas seemed to have a closer relationship than their European counterparts.