once again sun wukong you have leapt to an absolute extreme in order to try and build an argument.
which, as usual, falls flat as far as i'm concerned.
who cares what's in zoo?
- Thread starter patrick
- Start date
once again sun wukong you have leapt to an absolute extreme in order to try and build an argument.
which, as usual, falls flat as far as i'm concerned.
you reckon? melbourne zoo has...
de brazza's guenons
guereza colobus
ebony langurs
lion-tailed macaques
hamadryas baboons
mandrills
cotton-cop tamarins
golden lion tamarins
emperor tamarins
squirrel monkeys
spider monkeys
ring-tailed lemurs
ruffed lemurs
thats about as good if not better than any zoo in europe or america. adelaide also has a decent primate collection as does perth. the only zoo thats looking a little slim is taronga, but even that zoo has more primates than most people realise (they are just displayed badly).
Adelaide Zoo recently had chimpanzees and (temporarily) gorillas. Not counting those two species, they currently have 14 species of primates...which must be the most in Australia.
pgymy marmosets
cotton-top tamarin
black lion tamarin
golden lion tamarin
lion-tailed macaque
sumatran orangutan
white-cheeked gibbon
siamang
bolivian squirrel monkey
hamadryas baboon
mandrill
eastern black-and-white colobus monkey
dusky leaf monkey
ring-tailed lemur
pgymy marmosets
cotton-top tamarin
black lion tamarin
golden lion tamarin
lion-tailed macaque
sumatran orangutan
white-cheeked gibbon
siamang
bolivian squirrel monkey
hamadryas baboon
mandrill
eastern black-and-white colobus monkey
dusky leaf monkey
ring-tailed lemur
nup, cos i excluded primates off display (slow loris) and all apes (gorillas, orang-utans and two gibbon species).
melbourne zoo currently has 18 species of primate, which makes for a very large, diverse and satisfying collection as far as i'm concerned.
and the biggest in australia.
melbourne zoo currently has 18 species of primate, which makes for a very large, diverse and satisfying collection as far as i'm concerned.
and the biggest in australia.
@Patrick: I now see that you originally omitted gorillas, orangs and gibbons from your primate list.
Melbourne Zoo has slow loris off exhibit? That's disappointing that they aren't available for the public eye, but the primate collection is still very impressive.
Melbourne Zoo has slow loris off exhibit? That's disappointing that they aren't available for the public eye, but the primate collection is still very impressive.
yes snow leopard, a great shame and a wasted opportunity.
as far as i know they have never been on display (used for zoo school) and unfortunately the zoo, despite having success in breeding them in the past, have chosen to phase out the regions only nocturnal primate. perth now also have a single specimen but it seems that even between the two zoos, the idea of devoting enough space to these pint-sized creature seems well out of the question and no doubt a massive drain on resources.
instead they are planning to import some pygmy marmosets (because the common marmosets available in australia are not small enough) and devote a new enclosure to them. another animal that the zoos decided to phase-in at the expense of a species already kept.
as far as i know they have never been on display (used for zoo school) and unfortunately the zoo, despite having success in breeding them in the past, have chosen to phase out the regions only nocturnal primate. perth now also have a single specimen but it seems that even between the two zoos, the idea of devoting enough space to these pint-sized creature seems well out of the question and no doubt a massive drain on resources.
instead they are planning to import some pygmy marmosets (because the common marmosets available in australia are not small enough) and devote a new enclosure to them. another animal that the zoos decided to phase-in at the expense of a species already kept.
NZ Jeremy
Well-Known Member
I think this is a bad look for zoos, it erodes the message of conservation and purpose of ARAZPA, especially when it is quite transparently only about increasing zoo visitors (i.e. open your wallets again to see our amazing new species)...
I wish the 10 or so major zoos in Australasia would more aggresively get together and say this is 'the' list, please don't deviate or your out of the 'club'...
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i find loris particularly intriguing, but given their nocturnal habits and the fact there are very few of them in this country choosing between them and an easily displayed and regionally abundant diurnal species like the pygmy marmoset seems an easy choice. maybe loris should be back listed along with capybarra and giant ant eater as a species Australian zoos could 'reacquire' in the near future once weve shed the rest of the phase out species and got the CBP for nominated species down pat.
i agree with all the points raised so far. i think theyre sensible and valid, and also pretty obvious. with numbers of most non-managed species crashing before our eyes and zoos moreorless aggressively managing the species ARAZPA wants it looks to me like what we will end up with is fewer species backed up by in-situ programs.
i agree with all the points raised so far. i think theyre sensible and valid, and also pretty obvious. with numbers of most non-managed species crashing before our eyes and zoos moreorless aggressively managing the species ARAZPA wants it looks to me like what we will end up with is fewer species backed up by in-situ programs.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
Whoa, pat, a little less sharp-tongued; if You don't like the "extreme" example I gave, then this is Your cup of tea. If You want to resuscitate this chewed through subject from the dead-feel free to do so. Yet even if You might not like my answer & argumentation, You shouldn't try to belittle it. You said You don't care what animals are kept-and I said why I care. Erfurt Zoo's small animal house is an actual example of what I remarked-almost all the animals now displayed there can be bought in a pet shop; that's not exactly what I personally expect from a zoo. You've got Your opinion about this subject-I've got mine (which I stated at length at the other thread). "Klappe zu, Affe tot" as the Germans like to say...
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To be fair to Patrick you did say "only", I'm sure most of us would agree that we wouldn't be interested in a glorified pet-shop.
I have no personal experience of Erfurt but even if they have loads of rabbits they surely have plenty of other more interesting creatures (even if their douc langurs have all gone) -
http://contentboard.keller-verlag.d.../b_the_-_tierbestand_31-12-2006-einzeln-1.pdf
Best wishes
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
Erfurt has some interesting species, and some, like in the case of the newer colobus exhibits, are even well exhibited. Nevertheless, I have been to quite a bunch of smaller zoos where the "only" aspect in regard to common pet species is quite true-and these "extremes" should not be neglected when making generalising statements like "I don't care what animals are in a zoo". Additionally, I do get the impression that in a not too small amount of zoos, it has become quite common to fill "vacant positions" with most common species You can also find at more and more private households. The aspect that more and more exotic species are kept privately shouldn't be neglected, neither in this context.
Of course, people will still go to a zoo with just pets, people can relate to these animals, it's good when just the animals that can be properly housed are displayed, blablablabla...However, the Erfurt small mammal house (not the overal zoo) is a good example; when I went there f.e. in the early 90's, they had an interesting collection including bushbabies, bats, kinkajous, night herons etc. Now it's zebra finches, gerbils and Bearded Dragons...yippee. Very similar to the new "zoo" I recently visited in Aying; You better visit the local brewery and the restaurant with the giant schnitzels instead... In my humble opinion, it'd be just a waste of ressources and professionals if this tendency would continue to spread in zoos...And even the dumbest zoo visitors, who just goes to a zoo, no matter what it offers, might find himself after a while no longer attracted to a zoo collection that is less exotic than what he keeps at home...
Of course this saying doesn't apply to monkey kings; if someone can live with a mountain topped on him, he can do well with a closed flap, too...
Of course, people will still go to a zoo with just pets, people can relate to these animals, it's good when just the animals that can be properly housed are displayed, blablablabla...However, the Erfurt small mammal house (not the overal zoo) is a good example; when I went there f.e. in the early 90's, they had an interesting collection including bushbabies, bats, kinkajous, night herons etc. Now it's zebra finches, gerbils and Bearded Dragons...yippee. Very similar to the new "zoo" I recently visited in Aying; You better visit the local brewery and the restaurant with the giant schnitzels instead...
In my humble opinion, it'd be just a waste of ressources and professionals if this tendency would continue to spread in zoos...And even the dumbest zoo visitors, who just goes to a zoo, no matter what it offers, might find himself after a while no longer attracted to a zoo collection that is less exotic than what he keeps at home...Of course this saying doesn't apply to monkey kings; if someone can live with a mountain topped on him, he can do well with a closed flap, too...
the reason i get so "sharp tongued" sun wukong is because despite the potentially misleading title of the thread - "who cares what's in a zoo", in my opening comments i make a pretty clear statement regarding what it was i meant by that. this is meant to be a conversation about accepting that not all your a-z of animals be in the zoo, in return for better managed, more proactive breeding programs. obviously, the suggestion that zoos become glorified pet shops is ridiculous as neither zoos nor domestic pets would not benefit from a managed zoo-based breeding program. so instead of giving a valid argument, instead all you achieved was to intentionally take my title out of context and drag this conversation in another direction. a direction that, lets be honest, none of us have much interest in.
the last time we had a similar conversation (though that time it was in regards to whether zoos can survive without large mammals) you again jumped to the extreme that i was suggesting zoos should not have gorillas, bears or monkeys. this would have been fair enough - the first time. however you continued with this as the basis of your argument, despite numerous times me reiterating that i was pretty much specifically talking about BIG animals like elephants, giraffe, white rhino and river hippo.
based on your highly articulate and carefully constructed responses i can only conclude that your not stupid and knew exactly what i was saying, but instead you chose to ignore it, probably because you find developing a good counter-response to my fictitious views quite entertaining.
however, being on the other end of it is extremely frustrating so i make no apologies for my response, no matter how sharp it may seem.
as you know i don't shy away from a good debate sun wukong, but please don't assume me for a fool and continually make extremes of my position to get a spark flying. assume me for an intelligent person and i'll do the same - then we can have a much more interesting a logical debate/discussion.
the last time we had a similar conversation (though that time it was in regards to whether zoos can survive without large mammals) you again jumped to the extreme that i was suggesting zoos should not have gorillas, bears or monkeys. this would have been fair enough - the first time. however you continued with this as the basis of your argument, despite numerous times me reiterating that i was pretty much specifically talking about BIG animals like elephants, giraffe, white rhino and river hippo.
based on your highly articulate and carefully constructed responses i can only conclude that your not stupid and knew exactly what i was saying, but instead you chose to ignore it, probably because you find developing a good counter-response to my fictitious views quite entertaining.
however, being on the other end of it is extremely frustrating so i make no apologies for my response, no matter how sharp it may seem.
as you know i don't shy away from a good debate sun wukong, but please don't assume me for a fool and continually make extremes of my position to get a spark flying. assume me for an intelligent person and i'll do the same - then we can have a much more interesting a logical debate/discussion.
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NZ Jeremy
Well-Known Member
Too many threads lately have been screwing off topic into tangents...
I like this idea, when species on the 'list' have been acquired by the majority of zoos it would be good to get species back that experience was already gained...
I like this idea, when species on the 'list' have been acquired by the majority of zoos it would be good to get species back that experience was already gained...
agreed, but what worries me is that once a few zoos sign on to develop a program for a species, they don't all acquire some at once. what happens is different zoos are phasing-in different species at the same time and that risks no zoo getting around to jumping on board with any other zoos program, as they are preoccupied phasing in their own.
melbourne has agreed to house dhole in conjunction with taronga and adelaide. thus taronga got some from cambodia and is breeding them. melbourne hasn't yet. neither imported any or taken any off taronga. quite simply it doesn't have any room for them and hasn't made it a priority to make any. taronga, melbourne and adelaide decided to phase in francois' langurs. this was despite melbourne already keeping javan langurs and adelaide keeping duskys. taronga imported a pair of francois', but melbournes javans are still alive, thus it has no room and adelaide, keen for a baby monkey from the dusky's it paid good money to import, bred their monkeys and have now, from what i can remember, backed out of the proposed program.
and this didn't happen in the distant past. this happened just recently.
melbourne has agreed to house dhole in conjunction with taronga and adelaide. thus taronga got some from cambodia and is breeding them. melbourne hasn't yet. neither imported any or taken any off taronga. quite simply it doesn't have any room for them and hasn't made it a priority to make any. taronga, melbourne and adelaide decided to phase in francois' langurs. this was despite melbourne already keeping javan langurs and adelaide keeping duskys. taronga imported a pair of francois', but melbournes javans are still alive, thus it has no room and adelaide, keen for a baby monkey from the dusky's it paid good money to import, bred their monkeys and have now, from what i can remember, backed out of the proposed program.
and this didn't happen in the distant past. this happened just recently.