Why are most Australian mammals rare outside of Australian Zoos?

MRJ said:
I think we are talking at cross purposes here. To explain more clearly what I am saying:
  • Smuggling is expensive. In terms of the discussion here we would mostly be talking about birds which can attract prices of $5,000+ each.
  • The market for smuggled birds is mostly for parrots, because parrot fanciers are most likely to pay the price. This is not to say other birds may not be involved. I am aware for instance of one attempt to smuggle turacos (as eggs) into Australia.
  • Which brings me to another point, it is a two way process.
  • A species is likely to be subject to smuggling until the price of birds bred in the recipient country drops below the price of smuggled birds.
  • For probably the last 40 years most smuggling would have been as eggs, which of course can easily be transported in hand luggage by air.
  • Prior to that there would have been a number of options, including sea, forged documents, bribery of officials etc. One factor would be that in previous years smuggling birds would not have been seen as such a serious offence, many people would not have thought much about looking the other way.
  • I am not suggesting there is a large trade currently in Australian birds, or that it poses any conservation risk. But to claim it does not exist is I believe an unsustainable position.
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In this you are right, there is smuggling going on, but it is a minor thing and indeed mostly covering parrots. And then mostly captive bred parrots, including colour mutations. A long time ago I was shown blue red-rumped parrots, where the parents arrived as eggs in the UK. And I know of captive-bred birds being bought in Europe for Australian fanciers. So it does happens. Of course someone outside Australia having orange-bellied parakeets or ground parrots would run into trouble, but someone acquiring blue blue-winged parrots or naretha blue-bonned could do so without getting noticed.

Do some of the captive populations outside Australia have a shady origin for sure, but it is for certain very specific species. In my view it is no surprise that a lot of the golden-shouldered parrots in Europe come from stock originally bred by a Dutch friend of the late Joe Mattinson, but looking at the current state of play, there are very few species that are financially interesting to smuggle, with the current risks.
 
Aren't most Australian mammals not kept outside Australia because they already have decent protections in Australia? One example that comes to mind is the brush-tailed possum. Zoos (especially accredited zoos) usually don't seem to try to scramble for what basically is an Australian raccoon when they could be keeping endangered species or easier to obtain common species.

Then again my observations may be limited.
 
PossumRoach said:
Zoos (especially accredited zoos) usually don't seem to try to scramble for what basically is an Australian raccoon when they could be keeping endangered species or easier to obtain common species.
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Which brings us full circle somewhat, as this results in the 'homogenisation' criticised on another current thread...
 
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The original question was "Why are most Australian mammals rare outside of Australian zoos?"

As about half of all Australia's native mammal species belong to groups that aren't popular with most zoo owners, it is likely that most Australian mammals would be rare outside of Australian zoos, even if non-Australian zoos kept more species of Australian marsupials.
 
I will keep an eye out for photos on media, and will probably comment on species that I think should not be available. I am happy to be corrected. and hope that I am completely wrong in my assumptions.
 
Terry Thomas said:
I will keep an eye out for photos on media, and will probably comment on species that I think should not be available. I am happy to be corrected. and hope that I am completely wrong in my assumptions.
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I'm not sure how this proves anything? Multiple people already have stated they don't know what species currently in zoos meet the "non-seedeaters" criteria you put.
 
Terry Thomas said:
I will keep an eye out for photos on media, and will probably comment on species that I think should not be available. I am happy to be corrected. and hope that I am completely wrong in my assumptions.
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One would have thought, given that it is your own claim, that you could simply name these species when asked.
 
Chlidonias said:
One would have thought, given that it is your own claim, that you could simply name these species when asked.
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I only take notice when something is shown on media, and the only ones that come to mind are satin bowerbirds and kookaburras, both of which I know occur outside Australia. Next time I see something I think is a bit suspect I will mention it. My memory is not what it was and I do not want to simply provide you with names out of the blue. Sorry if that upsets one, but that's the way it is! Anyone who thinks that there are no birds being smuggled from our country is fooling themselves.
 
Great Argus said:
I'm not sure how this proves anything? Multiple people already have stated they don't know what species currently in zoos meet the "non-seedeaters" criteria you put.
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I say 'non-seedeaters" but possibly I should have said 'softbills'.
 
Terry Thomas said:
I only take notice when something is shown on media, and the only ones that come to mind are satin bowerbirds and kookaburras, both of which I know occur outside Australia. Next time I see something I think is a bit suspect I will mention it. My memory is not what it was and I do not want to simply provide you with names out of the blue. Sorry if that upsets one, but that's the way it is! Anyone who thinks that there are no birds being smuggled from our country is fooling themselves.
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The only Satin Bowerbirds outside Australia are in Indonesia that I know of. I don't think America or Europe has had them within the last two decades, either way there are none now. Nor do we have any other endemic Australian bowerbirds.
Laughing Kookaburra is everywhere, and breeding well. No point in smuggling them. Plenty of Blue-winged as well. We don't have the other two kookaburra anywhere. Asia might have some, but we don't.

I think you're right that there's probably some smuggling going on, but largely only parrots. Maybe some softbills are going to Asia or somewhere, but they aren't turning up over here.
 
Great Argus said:
The only Satin Bowerbirds outside Australia are in Indonesia that I know of. I don't think America or Europe has had them within the last two decades, either way there are none now. Nor do we have any other endemic Australian bowerbirds.
Laughing Kookaburra is everywhere, and breeding well. No point in smuggling them. Plenty of Blue-winged as well. We don't have the other two kookaburra anywhere. Asia might have some, but we don't.

I think you're right that there's probably some smuggling going on, but largely only parrots. Maybe some softbills are going to Asia or somewhere, but they aren't turning up over here.
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Correct. In Europe, the last ones were at Walsrode (end 80's) and Rotterdam (1990).
I've seen them in Rotterdam and possibly also at Bronx Zoo in the same period (I'm not sure about that last one because I didn't take any notes)
 
Hello, Could someone tell which zoos in Europe have the best Australian mammal collection? So far the only one I know is Hammerton Zoo in the UK. Any others? Thank you
 
Duisburg, Planckendael... maybe Pairi Daiza or ZooParc de Beauval? I know Budapest has a great overall Australian collection, but I'm not sure if they are stronger on mammals than the aforementioned zoos.
 
OkapiJohn said:
Hello, Could someone tell which zoos in Europe have the best Australian mammal collection? So far the only one I know is Hammerton Zoo in the UK. Any others? Thank you
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Concerning that Duisburg just received long-nosed potoroos and will recieve yellow-footed rock wallaby in the near future and tree-kangaroos in the longer future, I would say Duisburg should be among the top three if not the number one on Australian mammals. I mean they already house five species of kangaroos (2 to come), wombats, devils, koalas, enchidnas... only platypus misses ;)
 
janfc1948 said:
Concerning that Duisburg just received long-nosed potoroos and will recieve yellow-footed rock wallaby in the near future and tree-kangaroos in the longer future, I would say Duisburg should be among the top three if not the number one on Australian mammals. I mean they already house five species of kangaroos (2 to come), wombats, devils, koalas, enchidnas... only platypus misses ;)
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Indeed, I just checked and it seems good. But the most impressive was Hamerton so far.
 
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