Woburn Safari Park Woburn Safari Park Sea Lion Exhibit Goes

[John Dineley]

Wow! Ok I Guess you believe that I have no knowledge regarding filtration systems! When you have no idea who I am or what I do! You obviously know more than anyone else, a dangerous and typical old skool trait. Most of your references are far to old.

Indeed, I have no idea who you are or what you currently do but that is always going to be a problem when you post under an anonymous pseudo name. Unfortunately you also clearly seem to take perceived criticism personally.

The allegation that I know more than anyone else and that my age and experience some how makes my comments invalid is actually is both ageist and inflammatory. But you are entitled to your opinion although people who know me well would I suspect not support that as being a fact.

And you are right that my references are old but that doesn’t mean they are not valid. I would respectively point out that you have provided none to support your position.

Anyway John thanks for the lecture, maybe you should make and design marine mammal pools because you clearly know more than the designers (blackpool and bristol passed on their company to us who told us what I told you, clearly wrong!) and Andrew Greenwood is obviously also miss-informed with his advice. A marine mammal vet too maybe?

I think I made it clear that I have indeed been involved in the design of animal exhibits. I do know Andrew Greenwood and the other vets at IZVG and have worked with them. I actually remember when he first came to work with David Taylor in 1970 so one could suggest that he was also 'old skool' - whatever that is meant to mean. Further, as you haven’t made it clear where Andrew and I disagree on I can not comment.

I agree with the ridiculous Woburn statement but feel very insulted that you suggest that the staff are incompetent when you know nothing of the management. Automatic dosing systems do inevitably go wrong and do effect welfare when they do,but please publish something for your pro chemical evidence. They have already had storms in Turkey and the pens are fine, don't be bitter, we have all moved on! out with the old in with new!

I did not suggest that the staff where incompetent so please don’t put words in my mouth.

I don’t understand your point regarding ‘dosing systems’ and publishing pro-chemical evidence as I think I did this. In any event I have commented enough on the subject and to continue to repeat information is rather pointless.

I have re-read my posts carefully and believe what I have stated is accurate and was posted to inform. My comments where directly related to a news release from Woburn which you yourself felt was “ridiculous” and which by it very nature casts doubt on the common place husbandry practise of other zoos. My second concern was to the relocation of the sea lions to Turkey and time many hopefully prove me wrong regarding my concerns but I think I was right to voice them from the information I have had from individual who have worked there in the past.

Unfortunately, you sadly have produced no valid evidence to counter mine and whilst I am happy to debate this subject I am not prepared to get involved in a personalised 'flame war' with you which I always find counter productive in these kinds of situations.

 

[John Dineley]

Anyway as a scientist, I'm sure you're aware that just because the research hasn't been done yet that a problem doesn't exist. It's a matter of time before something is published with regards to marine mammals and the chlorine for disinfection of their water. That is if it hasn't been done already.

Thank you the references. They are very diverse and cover the use of chlorine in many and varied environments where, for example, in the pulp mill the levels of chemical used would be very high and very reactive, it is used for bleaching paper after all.

One “The Negative Health Effects of Chlorine” published by the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine was particularly interesting. Orthomolecular medicine is actually not a recognised medicine at all but is basically mega-vitamin therapy which has little scientific foundation. The author Joseph G. Hattersley is a well known for promoting various medical therapies one being the mega-dosage of vitamin B12 to treat Alzheimer’s

Further, this is not a research paper but a review of published research with much of the original research being more than 10 years old or more.

Moreover, none of your cited references refer specifically to aquatic animals the nearest and most contemporaneous is “Impact of Chlorinated Swimming Pool Attendance on the Respiratory Health of Adolescents”.

However, I am aware of this type of research particularly to the problem with THM. I actually did a literature review some years ago for Dr Margaret Klinowska and the evidence against using chlorine still wasn’t compelling. To date the best review we have is Spotte (1991).

I do not disagree with your position regarding use of natural sea which as an element these animals have evolved in as being the first choice if available. My comments should not be construed as believing that chlorination in itself is the only option available for the Live Support Systems (LSS) of aquatic mammals, far from it. There are a number options and I have detailed them in reviews I published.

The fact is we have been keeping marine mammals in chlorinated systems for over 50 years, longer than the natural lifespans of many to the species kept, and no direct evidence seems to have been generate regarding that this practise is detrimental to them if undertaken with care speaks for itself.



Spotte, S (1991) Sterilization of Marine Mammal Pool Water: Theoretical and Health Consideration. APHIS Technical Bulletin No. 1797. Technical document from the APHIS Animal Care web site.

 

[aliratbags]

Apologies for not being more factual and scientific John and your knowledge is taken on board, I have no time to argue or gather evidence for my case, so it will have to be left open. Assure you this is not an excuse, I am very passionate about pinniped welfare in this country only have demanding commitments at the mo,

I'm sure we can both agree that this areas needs some more published up to date literature.

I get very frustrated in this area especially when I have no time to explain myself, which is why I lost it slightly. I Will get back to you when I have more time, and debating is good! just felt that some comments were a little assuming,
Anyway all the best and will revisit with some scientific evidence in the future,

Old skool was not a diss-respectful comment aimed at you, as experience is invaluable, just get frustrated with some older welfare systems that need updating and money isn't being spent.

Will return on this matter when life is not so crazy, stressful & busy

cheers aliratbags aka Ali x

 

[John Dineley]

Old skool was not a diss-respectful comment aimed at you, as experience is invaluable, just get frustrated with some older welfare systems that need updating and money isn't being spent

Thank you for your response. I really do appreciate you and fellow trainers frustration at the situations we sometimes find ourselves in. I have been there many times. The problem is that whilst you can train staff to the highest level if you don’t supply them with the appropriate tools and facilities it is pointless and very disheartening because I know 99% of animal keepers and trainers have passion towards the welfare of their animals. We are, at the end of the day, all on the same side.

As regards Turkey I sincerely hope my concerns are wrong. I do know one of the senior staff out there at the moment and know he is both very competent and experienced so hopefully the management of this facility will recognise this and let him do his job and provide with the support he needs.

I just want to repeat that my comment regarding “mismanagement” was not necessary direct at staff and as we all know at the end of day it is the people who control the money that have the last say.

I think it is very important that we share our experiences so I sincerely hope that you can find the time to write up the findings of your pinnipeds survey. This is so important as we continually need data. I am planning to review the whole water quality issue with aquatic mammals and perhaps produce and publish a new review. The unfortunate thing is that not much has really changed in the theory and practice since I my article for International Zoo News many years ago. I suspect this will mean a number of days research at the ZSL library.

In any event, I wish you good luck in your future endeavours.

 

[sealion]

Aliratbags- do you still work at woburn?

Woburn AND Chester? We won't have any left soon!
It will be just like the dolphins all over again....(well not exactly but let's not get into a debate about that, this thread has enough debating)

Surely the shows were more popular than a tropical house would be!?

Also, In saline swimming pools, the salt (NaCl!) naturally makes Chlorine which kills the bacteria. Would this not happen in a saline pinniped pool?

 

[aliratbags]

John,

Many Thanks for the posts to, I know we are on the same page and I will persue this area in the future. I am no longer in the industry (years of frustration and heart ache) but loved it none the less. Am currently teaching animal care and welfare.

Will keep in touch as there needs to be more science and communication as so many people do get it wrong! Guidelines are not enough,

Take care John and all the best

Ali Thompson

 

[John Dineley]

Sea Lion Update

I have recently heard the the sea lions from Woburn may now not be going to Turkey because of welfare concerns. Does anyone have any information on this?

 

[John Dineley]

I have heard the the sea lions from Woburn may now not be going to Turkey because of welfare concerns. Does anyone have any information on this?

 

[sealion]

I heard that aswell....interesting.

 

[zebedee101]

Was at Woburn yesterday and asked about the latest on the sealions. They are still there and they are hoping to move them out at the end of August. They are now going to Hong Kong as the establishment in Turkey was going to turn over half their alloted area to sharks, which caused major ethicl concerns. Sealion exhibit will then become the new penguin area.

 

[John Dineley]

Was at Woburn yesterday and asked about the latest on the sealions. They are still there and they are hoping to move them out at the end of August. They are now going to Hong Kong as the establishment in Turkey was going to turn over half their alloted area to sharks, which caused major ethicl concerns. Sealion exhibit will then become the new penguin area.

Ocean Park to live in chlorinated sea water.