Wales Ape & Monkey Sanctuary Wolf cubs 'rescue'

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Bele

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The local 'Evening Post' tonight reports that Cefn-yr-Erw hope to save a trio of wolf cubs in Belgade , Serbia , from an uncertain future . The 2.5 month-old cubs - two Canadian timber and one European - have been kept as pets but are now with the Serbian Voice for Animals .

The likely initial cost is quoted as £5,000 but the total cost including the construction of a large enclosure is set to be around £20,000 . Donations , sponsorship and gifts from the public are being sought .

A picture shows 2 black and 1 brown coloured cubs .
 
I agree johnstoni . I have seen the mandrill/spider monkey cage - it is a stable with a wire run attached . I will probably visit Cefn-Yr-Erw soon if the monsoon season stops here . I have not been there for a couple of years . I will report back .

My initial reaction to the wolf cub story was - why not pay a local vet to put them down . I am sure some will disagree with that ,but I do not see the point of what is proposed .
 
Bele said:
My initial reaction to the wolf cub story was - why not pay a local vet to put them down . I am sure some will disagree with that ,but I do not see the point of what is proposed .
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Some people get their priorities all muddled up. I agree they should house the Primates they have got properly first. Leave someone with the relevant experience to 'rescue' the wolves,if need be, they are certainly not worth enormous expense of being transported to the Uk, plus the cost of an enclosure etc.. Crazy...:rolleyes:
 
I don't understand why you would hold on to, say, capuchin or spider monkeys, keeping them like that, when you could easily just donate them to sanctuaries in Ireland or cornwall. I get that it's not appropriate in their eyes to move an animal back to a zoo environment, but to keep primates in those conditions. If I register my garage as a charity and call it a rescue centre can I keep capuchins in it?
 
Yes, that is a very poor cage for two monkeys. Hardly a 'Sanctuary' setting, is it? I wonder what the RSPCA would think of that enclosure.

Its ridiculious to have Primates in that sort of housing while contemplating spending out a large amount to 'rescue' wolfcubs. A case of them taking on too much perhaps and not having sufficient funds for proper upkeep?
 
But as Cefn-Yr-Erw is a 'Sanctuary' I doubt if the RSPCA or Zoocheck would criticise them though they will happily put the boot to a zoo .

I assume that , as Cefn-Yr-Erw charges visitors to view wild animals in captivity , that it should have a Zoo Licence - am I correct or are there exemptions ? Does DEFRA display all Zoo Inspection reports , I will have to investigate .
 
Bele said:
But as Cefn-Yr-Erw is a 'Sanctuary' I doubt if the RSPCA or Zoocheck would criticise them though they will happily put the boot to a zoo .

I assume that , as Cefn-Yr-Erw charges visitors to view wild animals in captivity , that it should have a Zoo Licence - am I correct or are there exemptions ? Does DEFRA display all Zoo Inspection reports , I will have to investigate .
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The sanctuary does comply with Zoo Licence legislation. I cannot directly comment on the state of the park, as although I've been there on business, I didn't get a chance to look around. I did meet both the owners, who seem to be keen and knowledgeble about the general zoo industry. I should say that I don't condone the keeping of animals for keeping sakes and have seen numerous poor setups which should be closed.

The park does seem to want of funds desperately, as is indicated by the photos. Unfortunately this is often the case for 'true' sanctuaries. I must admit the location is not one that I would choose. To make matters worse it is down the road from Wales' leading tourist attraction, the showcaves.

To compare it to other primate sanctuaries would be misleading. The Cornish trust which originally started with woolly monkeys and upgraded to the more accessible capuchins is set in an amazing site. But some of the original work was very dodgy - hand-reared woollys released into the wild only to die not knowing what to do, and wanton mixing of subspecies (now full species) because they were not truly managed - is disgraceful. Thankfully this has changed with the change of species. The other choice would be the all-singing-and-dancing Monkey World which is again in a lovely site and successful on the back of a tv program. An interesting link back to the Welsh sanctuary was the two Southport chimps which didn't go to Monkey World because they wanted money for taking them on. So they went to Wales instead. So which is the better place????

The wolves would provide much needed exposure for the park (and thus more income to spend on the park) but this is not to say that money might be better utilised to improve the current situation of other inhabitants.
 
Thanks for your comments tetrapod which clarify matters . I suspected that the attraction of obtaining the wolf cubs would be to draw visitors to the sanctuary . They do a 'meet the wolves' session with their current 2 animals .

As well as being close to the Showcaves the access road is difficult even after improvements were made .

Monkeyworld is obviously a commercial set-up but the money it draws in means what appear to be good conditions for its inhabitants . I assume they received money for taking on all the recently arrived capuchins . I am not happy about their proposal to return a family group of their golden-cheeked gibbons to Vietnam , there are many gibbons out there in desperate need of re-housing and those animals are now part of the small captive breeding population .
 
Bele said:
Thanks for your comments tetrapod which clarify matters . I suspected that the attraction of obtaining the wolf cubs would be to draw visitors to the sanctuary . They do a 'meet the wolves' session with their current 2 animals .

As well as being close to the Showcaves the access road is difficult even after improvements were made .

Monkeyworld is obviously a commercial set-up but the money it draws in means what appear to be good conditions for its inhabitants . I assume they received money for taking on all the recently arrived capuchins . I am not happy about their proposal to return a family group of their golden-cheeked gibbons to Vietnam , there are many gibbons out there in desperate need of re-housing and those animals are now part of the small captive breeding population .
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I understand their original wolves are actually cross-breeds.

I don't quite get Monkey World. One minute they are full-on rescue sanctuary, especially for chimps. Wonderful, it needs to be done. Then they keep and breed woolly monkeys and golden-cheeked gibbons. Like a zoo. And then release them back in-situ... like a zoo.

I agree, though, that there are plenty enough gibbons in grotty hell-holes all over Asia that could be better cared for without having to send more there. Unless there is some release program going on in undisturbed pristine Vietnamese habitat...
 
It is an uncomfortable criticism due to the intention and commitment of the owners of Cefn Yr Erw, and they thanklessly rescued two groups of UK zoo chimpanzees which had been given a raw deal for some time. I am in no doubt that the chimps are better off now, and given more TLC than when at either of the zoos they came from. When they got the hamadrays baboons, they built a perfectly adequate island for them, again thanklessly and with very little publicity or revenue.

That I think is where the sanctuary should have stopped, perhaps until they were able to extend the ape facilities, and get everything up to a decent standard. Now, they just appear to have taken on far more than they can cope with. If they really don't have the funds to improve the smaller primate accomodation after years of holding those animals, then they should find decent homes for them. No matter how much you care about your charges, it's not okay to house lemurs or capuchins like that, especially if they are 'rescued'.

I agree about monkeyworld. It was a real departure when the gibbons and woollys arrived. As discussed on other threads, we don't think the woolly monkeys are any given subspecies, so I would be very surprised if they or their offspring were ever returned to South America. Although I don't understand how joining an EEP fits in with their ethos, I think they have enough integrity to maintain a good relationship with the authorities in Vietnam, I don't think those gibbons were ever 'owned' by Monkeyworld anyway. And I'm pretty sure more will arrive should the need arise to house them.
 
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Bele said:
I suspected that the attraction of obtaining the wolf cubs would be to draw visitors to the sanctuary . They do a 'meet the wolves' session with their current 2 animals .

Monkeyworld is obviously a commercial set-up but the money it draws in means what appear to be good conditions for its inhabitants
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I can better understand the rationale behind this sanctuary trying to obtrain the wolf cubs now. I didn't know they had wolves already.

Monkey World have improved their enclosures a lot over time, initially they were quite low budget but never on a par with the basic enclosures at the Welsh Sanctuary. For a start Monkey World is visited by large numbers of paying public each summer and as such it would have to maintain a reasonable standard of enclosure to make it a worthwhile visit. However, its enclosures are nowhere near as good as say, Apenheul in Holland, or some other specialist primate collections.
 
tetrapod said:
I understand their original wolves are actually cross-breeds.

I don't quite get Monkey World. One minute they are full-on rescue sanctuary, especially for chimps. Wonderful, it needs to be done. Then they keep and breed woolly monkeys and golden-cheeked gibbons. Like a zoo. And then release them back in-situ... like a zoo.

I agree, though, that there are plenty enough gibbons in grotty hell-holes all over Asia that could be better cared for without having to send more there. Unless there is some release program going on in undisturbed pristine Vietnamese habitat...
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I agree with you on the Wolves??!! that they are hybrids wouldn`t like to say how far removed from Wolves they realy are.As for Monkeyworld i think they just want it both ways been able to say look how we are helping zoo`s with their breeding programs but not been a zoo.Any way if you want to support Cefn-Yr-Erw when you visiy you could always stop in their Bed and Breakfast accomadation,which is pretty reasonable.
 
tetrapod said:
I don't quite get Monkey World.
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I think they see themselves nowadays as both a Rescue & a Rehabilitation Centre. The only thing is the species they rescue and the ones they rehabilitate are not the same.

Are they trying to do with Gibbons what Aspinall has done with Gorillas? And what is their policy with Orangutans- to encourage breeding in order to send animals back to Borneo for re-release? There is no point breeding them otherwise.

Is 'Monkeyworld' still anti-zoo nowadays? :confused:
 
Monkeyworld golden-cheeked gibbons

Sorry I am wandering from the original topic . Of the 8 adult golden-cheeked gibbons they have only 3 came from Taiwan . Two males were zoo-bred in Los Angeles and Pretoria , one female was smuggled and confiscated in the UK , 2 others were wild-caught but came via zoos in France and Kalingrad .
 
Bele said:
Sorry I am wandering from the original topic . Of the 8 adult golden-cheeked gibbons they have only 3 came from Taiwan . Two males were zoo-bred in Los Angeles and Pretoria , one female was smuggled and confiscated in the UK , 2 others were wild-caught but came via zoos in France and Kalingrad .
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Sounds to me like a full-blooded zoo breeding program.
 
zoogiraffe said:
I agree with you on the Wolves??!! that they are hybrids wouldn`t like to say how far removed from Wolves they realy are.As for Monkeyworld i think they just want it both ways been able to say look how we are helping zoo`s with their breeding programs but not been a zoo.Any way if you want to support Cefn-Yr-Erw when you visiy you could always stop in their Bed and Breakfast accomadation,which is pretty reasonable.
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As I metioned I haven't seen any of the animals at the sanctuary, but I believe that it is true that the two wolves are in fact hybrids (I don't think the park advertises them as anything but wolves). They may in fact be the only true hybrids in this country, contrary to many reports of wolf-crosses in adverts. Most are alsation or husky crosses!

I think that Monkey World are having their cake and eating it too. I mean breeding orangs for what??? There are too many Bornean orangs that need rehabilitation in Borneo (and not enough forest) already. It comes back to the old problem of what defines a zoo. Or a wildlife park, safari park or sanctuary.
 
Well, if our zoos continue to evolve and improve, maybe there will be 5 times the orang holdings in europe in a few years, and indonesia may be reforesting and drawing on world captive stock forty or fifty years from now. So it makes sense for Monkey World to breed from genetically valuable animals, plus orangs breed so slowly it's not going to suddenly run out of space.
 
johnstoni said:
Well, if our zoos continue to evolve and improve, maybe there will be 5 times the orang holdings in europe in a few years, and indonesia may be reforesting and drawing on world captive stock forty or fifty years from now. So it makes sense for Monkey World to breed from genetically valuable animals, plus orangs breed so slowly it's not going to suddenly run out of space.
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Again this sounds like Monkey World behaving like a zoo...

I don't have any personal problem with breeding orangs in captivity, I just don't understand why a rescue sanctuary is doing so. Unless MW wants to change its remit...
 
It's okay that they are breeding their orangs, surely? It's not like they are going to run out of room. If they began deliberately breeding from their chimps or capuchins, I think it might be more in conflict with their ethos. I think there would be many comments against monkey world on these threads if they were holding their gibbons and orangs as non-breeding rescue animals (look at the vitriol against Twycross re their elephant/gorilla situation). But I agree that somewhere along the line they appear to have branched out into captive breeding alongside the better-publicised primate rescue role.
 
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