Wales Ape & Monkey Sanctuary Wolf cubs 'rescue'

[Pertinax]

I don't have any personal problem with breeding orangs in captivity, I just don't understand why a rescue sanctuary is doing so. Unless MW wants to change its remit...

I too am rather perplexed at Monkeyworld's position over Orangutans. Unlike the chimpanzees, they seem to be actively encouraging breeding, but is this in order to repatriate them? It would seem doubly difficult (impossible?), and more expensive, to repatriate Orangutans born in the Uk back to Borneo than from within S.E Asia... I can't see any other reason for them otherwise to promote breeding- are they now part of the EEP programme for this species I wonder?

I believe they are now also acting as a 'nursery school' for the EEP for rearing/socialising infant orangutans that have had to be handraised.

 

[Bele]

Monkey World chimps

I imagine most of the Monkey World rescued chimps were of wild origin . I wonder if any attempt has been made to identify which sub-species they belong to .

I think it is West African chimps - not certain of the sub-species - that are now considered to be very rare and subject to a zoo breeding programme . It could some of these Monkey World animals might be of value for this programme - why not a proper breeding group of chimps at Monkey World .

 

[Pertinax]

.

I think it is West African chimps - not certain of the sub-species - that are now considered to be very rare and subject to a zoo breeding programme . It could some of these Monkey World animals might be of value for this programme - why not a proper breeding group of chimps at Monkey World .

Yes, correct, West African chimpanzee- I think it is P.t. verus. And a good point that Monkeyworld may well have some in their colonies. But could they find out which individuals. Is there a DNA test? And would they set up a breeding group? At present they try to prevent their chimpanzees breeding though they are not altogether successful.

 

[taun]

Yes, correct, West African chimpanzee- I think it is P.t. verus. And a good point that Monkeyworld may well have some in their colonies. But could they find out which individuals. Is there a DNA test? And would they set up a breeding group? At present they try to prevent their chimpanzees breeding though they are not altogether successful.

The other question of whether is fair for these chimps to be breed from, considering many have suffered mentally?

If they could find pure species that were mental okay, then they should certainley try to breed from them.

 

[Pertinax]

I think they are all on contraceptive implants but sometimes they remove them or get pregnant somehow and babies are born. I don't know how many there have been mother-reared or whether impaired females can rear their own offspring.
But I think their remit is to give these chimps a happy life rather than actively reproduce them. But as Johnstoni has pointed out previously- the happiest and most natural captive groups in primates are those that contain babies.

 

[zoogiraffe]

The females i believe are not on an contraceptive implants as the males have all had the snip which pretty much stops any breeding.

 

[Pertinax]

The females i believe are not on an contraceptive implants as the males have all had the snip which pretty much stops any breeding.

That must have been done to prevent any more breeding as I know in the past that contraceptives weren't 100% preventing births, whereas vasectomising the males definately will.

 

[johnstoni]

Breeding can still happen post-vasectomy occasionally, and there are obviously some infants born at MonkeyWorld, but nearly all of them, unsurprisingly, have had to be hand-reared. I think there is one female who has raised her own young, but she is the exception. So, contrary to what I previously thought, the value of breeding from the monkeyworld chimps is no greater than the stimulation (and stress) of introducing new animals to the existing groups, unless of course the infant is born and raised in the group.

 

[Bele]

From memory , one female has bred twice and reared both youngsters in one of the groups . The Television programmes about MW say that the presence of the young was very enriching for all of the group .

If they have rare West African chimps - I think they can be identified by DNA tests - and , assuming the particular animals are reasonable normal in behaviour , I would like to see them breeding . They are part of the EEP for orangs and golden-cheeked gibbons , why not for some of the chimps ?

 

[tetrapod]

From memory , one female has bred twice and reared both youngsters in one of the groups . The Television programmes about MW say that the presence of the young was very enriching for all of the group .

If they have rare West African chimps - I think they can be identified by DNA tests - and , assuming the particular animals are reasonable normal in behaviour , I would like to see them breeding . They are part of the EEP for orangs and golden-cheeked gibbons , why not for some of the chimps ?

While there is merit in looking for pure subspecies of chimp within the captive populations, there must be some thought to how this will alter group dynamics. Chimps are very unforgiving when you remove certain individuals. In some ways the Monkey World chimps are worth looking at because they should be from wild founder stock and in non-breeding situations. However the trauma of their past may cause a few problems too.

Is there an EEP for West African chimps?

 

[Pertinax]

Is there an EEP for West African chimps?

I'm presuming so as I believe there is a recommendation out for zoos to concentrate only on breeding this 'pure' species rather than 'crossbred' or other races.

I don't actually know if any UK zoos have known 'pure' West African chimps or are involved with breeding them.

 

[Bele]

Western Chimpanzee EEP

I have just checked out the 2005 EEP Yearbook - the latest published .

The studbook is co-ordinated by Mr Frands Carlsen from Copenhagen .

The traditional method of identifying the 4 sub-species is by mitochondrial DNA but a new CD4 test is being developed . They plan to test all remaining European chimps .

As at 31.12.2005 49.82 animals are listed in the studbook - including 0.4 at Wareham ! I suspect these could be the 4 young females that came from a Dutch laboratory . ISIS list 57.83.2 in Europe as at 5.8.2008 including 0.2 at Dublin , 16.26 at Hilvarenbeek ( ex Dutch labs ? ), Leipzig 7.13 and Romagne 10.0 . I wonder if Edinburgh has plans to get hold of some for their future breeding plans .

 

[Pertinax]

. I wonder if Edinburgh has plans to get hold of some for their future breeding plans .

I think this has been mentioned before and the answer is possibly yes- since they want to increase the size of their group considerably. Presumably they would keep their existing chimps too but only allow the West Africans to breed. Very few other Uk zoos have the scope to be able to do that.

 

[foz]

have edinburgh got two enclosures for the chimps so both gorups could be kept without one group being inside and one out?

 

[tetrapod]

have edinburgh got two enclosures for the chimps so both gorups could be kept without one group being inside and one out?

I would guess that they will castrate/vasectomize any unknown males and put the females on the pill. Will be an interesting introduction...

 

[foz]

would they risk the occasional accident that may occur beetween the two subspecies?

 

[tetrapod]

would they risk the occasional accident that may occur beetween the two subspecies?

If they were careful then they shouldn't breed. I have no idea what the age or composition of any of Edinburgh's chimp group.

 

[Pertinax]

I would guess that they will castrate/vasectomize any unknown males and put the females on the pill. Will be an interesting introduction...

Yes, they could have one large social group but with all their existing chimps sterilized & only allowing the purebreds to breed. Eventually, a long time ahead, the crossbreds would die out.

Edinburgh currently have 11 chimps (all mixed race); 3/4 adult males, 3 or 4 adult females and a couple of youngsters. Their full details appear on another thread.(Edinburgh/Budongo?)

 

[zelda]

I can completely understand monkeyworld breeding their orangs. They protect animals because morally they feel it is the right thing to do. They do not breed those animals for the same reason. But they cannot justify to themselves sitting back and watching a species go extinct when they have valuble individuals of that species in their care. Morally to them there is no question. It's a shame that other rescues don't think in the same way.

Animal welfare and conservation crosses over all the time. I'd personally attack them more if they refused to share, and kept their animals out of the eep. I'd call that more irresponsible. Who cares what their name is if it cares for the animals properly and we need the genes.

 

[tetrapod]

I can completely understand monkeyworld breeding their orangs. They protect animals because morally they feel it is the right thing to do. They do not breed those animals for the same reason. But they cannot justify to themselves sitting back and watching a species go extinct when they have valuble individuals of that species in their care. Morally to them there is no question. It's a shame that other rescues don't think in the same way.

Animal welfare and conservation crosses over all the time. I'd personally attack them more if they refused to share, and kept their animals out of the eep. I'd call that more irresponsible. Who cares what their name is if it cares for the animals properly and we need the genes.

I'm sorry zelda but this is a load of garbage. Monkeyworld is picking and choosing what it 'believes' in. I don't see any problem with an organisation wanting to be specifically a sanctuary for unwanted, ill-treated or surplus animals. Nor do I see a problem with one that breeds animals specifically for ex-situ/in-situ conservation purposes. And thirdly, I don't see a problem with an organisation wanting to do a little bit of both. My main bugbear with Monkeyworld's stance is that it claims to be just a sanctuary for rescuing primates. That would be fine if that was what it is doing. But it isn't. Monkeyworld are breeding white-cheeked gibbons, woolly monkeys and Bornean orangs. They have obviously linked up with an in-situ breeding/release program for the gibbons with Vietnam. Yet there is already a EEP for buffy-cheeked gibbons, which Monkeyworld does not appear to be part of. My guess is the woolly monkeys are of mixed ancestry (as they are in Europe) and so are of display value only. But the situation with the orangs confuses me. If they were part of the EEP breeding program then I would understand. But there is no point just breeding orangs for breeding sakes. They must be either part of a proper breeding program or part of an in-situ release. Given the huge number of animals that are in rehab centres in Borneo, I know for a fact it is not the latter point. If they wanted to justify the morals of keeping the orangs then Monkeyworld would spend alot more of their money on in-situ work - which reputable orang-orientated zoos do. I don't believe that Monkeyworld spends any of it's donation budget on orangs. Moreover many of their 'rescue' animals are just surplus zoo stock which Monkeyworld has taken on, but could have gone to other zoos.

Given that the major focus of the park is and will always be chimpanzees, why are they not purposely breeding similarly endangered chimps? Because there is no reason to do so. None of the chimps are likely to be repatriated to West Africa. So conservation value - largely zip.

I do not have a problem with the way they house their animals, and in fact they are miles better than other so-called world-class primate facilities. I have a problem with their high-handed stance of 'rescuing' animals when they are not actually doing so (not to denigrate when they actually do so). It is just another example of good PR, backed up by a popular TV show.