I honestly think you took some things way too seriously, my guy. No, birds aren't "disposable" nor do exhibitry are more important than animal welfare, but sometimes you need to have a little laugh at the past.
Worst Mixed-Species Combinations?
- Thread starter Emanuel Theodorus
- Start date
Nope; I don't particularly think it's terribly amusing either given the fact that (despite the protestations of @Jungle Man and @Emanuel Theodorus that they are only laughing at what "people in that time" thought acceptable) a fair number of the exhibits mentioned are ones which existed within the recent past, and therefore represent mistakes made by the current generation, not far-distant "trial and error" incidents.
Case in point, the two examples cited above by Crowthorne existed within the last half-decade.
I remember seeing a photo from Cincinnati of vampire bats coinhabiting with a three-banded armadillo. Not sure exactly when it was but definitely ended a while ago.
Just to point that killing and harming each other happens even more frequently among animals in the wild. Youtube will find you any number examples of angry hippos attacking antelopes etc. etc.
Zoo animals, in fact, have much less chance of being harmed by another animal. Which I am not at all sure is always a good thing. For example, male hoofed animals have virtually no chance to spar with each other.
I've heard the tale of a German zoo trying to mix a king cobra with an arboreal monitor lizard species. Apparently, the king cobra quite enjoyed the rather expensive meal.
The aforementioned bongo vs. duiker feud allegedly started like so many other arguments between different families: child 1 tried to play with child 2, something went wrong, the parents got involved, and it was on...
I think both Zoo Basel and Schwerin tried a yellow mongoose / African lion mixed exhibit and stopped when the lions started to play "Whac-A-Mongoose". The combination of Asian lions and Alexandrine parakeets at Zoo Zürich ended on a similar note.
The aforementioned bongo vs. duiker feud allegedly started like so many other arguments between different families: child 1 tried to play with child 2, something went wrong, the parents got involved, and it was on...
I think both Zoo Basel and Schwerin tried a yellow mongoose / African lion mixed exhibit and stopped when the lions started to play "Whac-A-Mongoose". The combination of Asian lions and Alexandrine parakeets at Zoo Zürich ended on a similar note.
I don't understand how mixing large carnivores with small "snackable" creatures ever comes across as a good idea... Isn't the point of professional animal care to avoid losing any animals if possible?
It's actually not that uncommon if you think about it. Sharks & coral fish, bears & foxes, pythons & poison dart frogs, crocodilians & cichlids, komodo dragons & rice finches, arapaimas & guppies...it depends on the species, the individuals, the structure / size of the enclosure and the husbandry management. Both Basel and Schwerin (and Zürich) constructed and provided retreats for the more vulnerable species, but since we're dealing with living creatures, there's always a certain unpredictability at play. Or as Ian Malcolm would phrase it: "Life finds a way". All the working mixed species exhibits started with someone taking a risk and trying out whether the combination in question would work or not. Some do, others don't, despite all prior professional preparations. Given that available space on zoo grounds is finite and the legal husbandry size requirements for individual species are increasing, I'm rather certain that we're going to see even more mixed species exhibits in the future.
Andrew Swales
Well-Known Member
'Life finds a way' in this instance often involves the death of something else, even if this takes some time to happen and the results are not publicised.. Zoos are not the wild; everyone of these losses is the result of an active human decision. Space might well be 'finite', but zoos still seem to find plenty of room for lego animals, plastic dinosaurs and penguins, large play areas etc. I fear you are right though about the potential increase in the future, and it is not a laughable matter from yesterday. The blase attitude of 'lets dump them together, they'll make a good show, and we can either get some more if we need them, or hush up the failure' could almost have been expected of the 60's - but I still feel as it continues to present it could, and will, provide useful ammunition for the antis...
First, I'll preface by saying that for some species mentioned (like chimpanzees), I would err on the side of caution and probably *not* trying mixing them with other animals. I'm hesitant to fault zoos for trying, but some species are unpredictable and potentially aggressive enough that it's unclear the potential gain is worth the risk.
I'm don't think it's quite fair to mark up every mixed-species enclosure death to an "active human decision". Even though we're talking about mixed-species combos that may have ended in death, zoo animals have sometimes killed members of their own species, or have killed wild animals that wandered into their enclosure. Death is a part of life, and for every mixed-species combination that has ended in death there has probably been more than a hundred that didn't, and probably the vast majority of those have been successful; otherwise, walk-through aviaries and coral reef tanks wouldn't be ubiquitous. I also doubt that most zoos have a "blase" attitude about mixing species; on the contrary, from what I know a lot of precautions are taken before doing so, from exhibit design to gradual introductions and constant monitoring.
There was an okapi and an antelope (a nyala, or maybe kudu?) that lived together at the Blank Park Zoo in Iowa. They lived together for years, were close and liked to play with each other... until the antelope accidentally gored the okapi during play and it died of the injury. Was this foreseeable? Not really; technically it was always a possibility, but never a likely one... and up to that point, the two animals greatly enriched each other's lives. Tragic accidents happen, despite the best efforts and intentions of those involved.
Anti-zoo groups will use anything as ammunition
It seems to me that avoiding all risks and only doing things that cannot be misconstrued by anti-zoo media campaigns is both a waste of time and a better recipe for poor husbandry than mixed-species enclosures are.
I'm don't think it's quite fair to mark up every mixed-species enclosure death to an "active human decision". Even though we're talking about mixed-species combos that may have ended in death, zoo animals have sometimes killed members of their own species, or have killed wild animals that wandered into their enclosure. Death is a part of life, and for every mixed-species combination that has ended in death there has probably been more than a hundred that didn't, and probably the vast majority of those have been successful; otherwise, walk-through aviaries and coral reef tanks wouldn't be ubiquitous. I also doubt that most zoos have a "blase" attitude about mixing species; on the contrary, from what I know a lot of precautions are taken before doing so, from exhibit design to gradual introductions and constant monitoring.
There was an okapi and an antelope (a nyala, or maybe kudu?) that lived together at the Blank Park Zoo in Iowa. They lived together for years, were close and liked to play with each other... until the antelope accidentally gored the okapi during play and it died of the injury. Was this foreseeable? Not really; technically it was always a possibility, but never a likely one... and up to that point, the two animals greatly enriched each other's lives. Tragic accidents happen, despite the best efforts and intentions of those involved.
Anti-zoo groups will use anything as ammunition
It seems to me that avoiding all risks and only doing things that cannot be misconstrued by anti-zoo media campaigns is both a waste of time and a better recipe for poor husbandry than mixed-species enclosures are.Andrew Swales
Well-Known Member
I'm don't think it's quite fair to mark up every mixed-species enclosure death to an "active human decision". Even though we're talking about mixed-species combos that may have ended in death, zoo animals have sometimes killed members of their own species, or have killed wild animals that wandered into their enclosure. Death is a part of life, and for every mixed-species combination that has ended in death there has probably been more than a hundred that didn't, and probably the vast majority of those have been successful; otherwise, walk-through aviaries and coral reef tanks wouldn't be ubiquitous. I also doubt that most zoos have a "blase" attitude about mixing species; on the contrary, from what I know a lot of precautions are taken before doing so, from exhibit design to gradual introductions and constant monitoring.
There was an okapi and an antelope (a nyala, or maybe kudu?) that lived together at the Blank Park Zoo in Iowa. They lived together for years, were close and liked to play with each other... until the antelope accidentally gored the okapi during play and it died of the injury. Was this foreseeable? Not really; technically it was always a possibility, but never a likely one... and up to that point, the two animals greatly enriched each other's lives. Tragic accidents happen, despite the best efforts and intentions of those involved.
Anti-zoo groups will use anything as ammunition
We'll have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid. To my mind mixing lions with mongooses, cranes with moose, chimps with jackals and most of the others listed above, IS pretty blasé - and I did not say that every mixed species enclosure death was linked to a human decision OR that all risks should be avoided, as you quoted me. It will remain my opinion that there has been a great deal of animal wastage, especially of spp like guenons, on the alter of 'lets chuck them together, they'll make a nice show'...
I'm inclined to agree, especially on the cranes with hoofstock front.
Cranes seem to work well with at least some hoofstock. Deer (White-tailed or Fallow) and Sandhill Crane is a common mix that seems to work fine.
So the cranes in this setting live long and breed well?
They're usually rescues, which means breeding isn't attempted. But they do live long.
This combination is perhaps more likely in the USA than in Europe, where Sandhill Cranes are a bit harder to come by, and there are very few White-tailed Deer (plenty of Fallow, obvs)
Is it just me or are you just a tad bitter these days @Andrew Swales, almost always assuming the worst? With "Life finds a way", I meant that some mixed species concepts might look plausible on the paper for the people in charge, but don't work out in real life due to animals not acting as ideally envisioned. You should know me better by now to not assume that I advocate with levity the preventable death of animals.
Andrew Swales
Well-Known Member
Yes - it is you! You accuse me of 'always assuming the worst', when I never said anything of the like. This thread lists so many examples of stupid mixes which certainly do not look 'plausible on paper', to anyone - and it is still incredible to me that there is so much apparent support for such, and apparent amusement on here. I've simply pointed out the waste and loss of opportunity that has gone on over the years, and indeed continues. If you want to describe it that way, and I certainly didn't, then yes, I guess I am a bit bitter that whole spp and individuals have been lost to this process as a result of decisions by people who should have known better; and as you yourself predicted, it is likely to increase in the future...
Which do you prefer, learning from your mistakes, or keep doing mistakes. These zoos who let a preventable death of an animal happen, learn from their mistakes. But mixed-species exhibits remain popular as these usually are proven ones (turtle+crocs, bird+mammal, arboreal reptiles+terrestrial reptiles, reptile+amphibians) and it’s often animals who occupy different niches in their respective environments, with several exceptions (hoof stock with other hoof stock, etc.) As human beings, it’s our responsibility to monitor animals in a mixed-species environment, which zoos do. The problem is you are right and the other people are right, so it’s a bit pointless
Am I remembering correctly that there was a zoo that mixed geladas with a small species of goose? Surely that didn't last?
Andrew Swales
Well-Known Member
I am sorry that I do not appear to have made my opinion clear - just exactly where did I ever suggest that the choice was either 'learning from your mistakes' OR 'keep doing mistakes'.
My point was (and still is) exactly the opposite, that professional zoo people should have never made these mistakes in the first place. I have repeated this continually and have been misquoted every time.
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