Zion Wildlife Gardens yet another big cat accident at Zion

Jarkari said:
There will always be some form of income from the series, although I'm not sure if this goes to craig, his production company or the park itself. but as long as the show is on the air it will be producing an income even if they are all repeats.
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:)Yes when I think about it there is also the sale from DVD's, Calenders etc. The Production Company Primal Productions Ltd is owned by Patrica Busch & the guy that runs Great Southern Television. The info is on the companies office website but from what I understand doesn't Craig Busch own several companies as well? I know he signed over Country Developments (the company formed for the extension of Zion Wildlife Gardens) Maybe I'm talking through a hole in my head ?:D
 
I do appreciate white tigers and do enjoy looking at them but I also know they are of no other value to conservation of bengal tigers except the income they generate for them.
 
Jarkari said:
Sorry if this has already been posted and I missed it but I was thrilled to find this article... especially coming from the parks manager It's great he is telling the truth (not the death part) But anyway see for yourself what I'm talking about.

Park chief slams tiger shooting criticism - National - NZ Herald News
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Yes that was an excellent article. Glen Holland though was slammed for his comments by the public but let's face it what else could have been done. People were asking why a dart gun wasn't used..logical answer to that several minutes before the animal is sedated and by then a man would have been shredded pulp.:eek: No it was the right decision. Also The Dargaville & Districts News Ran a story on Zion. Good article they got their facts about white tigers not being a separate species but and inbred mutation:)
A close look at big cat behaviour | Stuff.co.nz

Worth a read if you have the time:)
 
Jarkari said:
I do appreciate white tigers and do enjoy looking at them but I also know they are of no other value to conservation of bengal tigers except the income they generate for them.
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I'm of the same opinion. Pretty to look at but that's all they are good for:) is for income generation
 
madbushfarm said:
I'm of the same opinion. Pretty to look at but that's all they are good for:) is for income generation
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I totally agree with you guys on this also.
So many people from the public are outraged that Abu was shot. But majority of those people dont understand anything about white tigers
Sure, white tigers are nice to look at. The reason they are white is because they have a recessive gene (mutation if you want to call it that)...they don't occur naturally in the wild..and they have been inbred so much that they are not useful in breeding programs of bengal tigers anyway (as said by Glen)
It was definately sad to see Abu go, but it was done in order to try and save Dalu's life. As someone said earlier, tranquiliser guns would be pointless in that situation as it takes so long for the drugs to take effect.
The staff couldnt get to Dalu to see if he were alive because Abu wouldnt let anyone near him...they had no other choice but to shoot Abu.
 
tigger000 said:
I totally agree with you guys on this also.
So many people from the public are outraged that Abu was shot. But majority of those people dont understand anything about white tigers
Sure, white tigers are nice to look at. The reason they are white is because they have a recessive gene (mutation if you want to call it that)...they don't occur naturally in the wild..and they have been inbred so much that they are not useful in breeding programs of bengal tigers anyway (as said by Glen)
It was definately sad to see Abu go, but it was done in order to try and save Dalu's life. As someone said earlier, tranquiliser guns would be pointless in that situation as it takes so long for the drugs to take effect.
The staff couldnt get to Dalu to see if he were alive because Abu wouldnt let anyone near him...they had no other choice but to shoot Abu.
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What gets me is Zion are trying to make out on their website that *Royal* White Tigers are somehow a subspecies of the Bengal Tiger
"...there are fewer than 4000 tigers left in the wild today, and while the orange Bengal tiger numbers amongst them, the Royal White tiger aslo only survives in captivity"

The way it's put it sounds like they're saying the white genetic mutation is more important than the true orange gene...excuse me?:eek:

It also says "Craig continues....to work with ..including Global Tiger Patrol.."

What a load of crock that is. Global Tiger Patrol have told me he used to donate to them but they hadn't heard from him in ages. And he wasn't involved with them in any breeding programmes - not that it was claimed.

Any way that's a little off the subject of this thread.

Tigger I agree with you fully. It was the right call to make. Abu's death was sad but Dalu's death was all the moreso and he in this case was more important. Glen Holland was right to say what and he and I'm sorry but I won't call him wrong for the decision he had to make. :D
 
'Global Tiger Patrol have told me he used to donate to them but they hadn't heard from him in ages'.

I got the same info from GTP when I asked them about it around new year time, incidentally. I think it's a very deceitful statement on the website; Zion are to trying to gain credibility or tag along with GTP's great work in India & elsewhere, which is wrong.
 
tigger000 said:
The reason they are white is because they have a recessive gene (mutation if you want to call it that)...they don't occur naturally in the wild..and they have been inbred so much that they are not useful in breeding programs of bengal tigers anyway (as said by Glen)
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I know the focus of this thread is on the death of Dalu, but I have to correct misinformation when I see it.

White tigers DO occur in the wild. In fact, despite the contention that they would only survive a few months, there are records of adult White Tigers breeding in the wild. All the captive White Tigers are descended from animals collected around Rewa in India. As has been pointed out, they are not a subspecies in their own right.

However, they do possess genes that can be used in the conservation of P.t.tigris, even if the White captive population is heavily inbred. If a White was introduced to a population of completely unrelated orange tigers, the resulting offspring would have an inbreeding co-efficient of zero. As the mutant gene occurs naturally in the wild, to exclude white tigers from conservation efforts of the subspecies would be detrimental. The only reason I can think of for not using them would be because over the last 50 years or so White P.t.tigris have been crossbred with P.t.altaica (formerly P.t.longipillis), and finding a guaranteed purebred White tigris might not be possible.

:p

Hix
 
i for one would be interested in the pedigree for the white tigers at zion, craig did say he sourced them from unrelated sources in America, however my reading suggests that all white tigers in captivitiy are related to one pairing of cat (i could be wrong).

i imagine that the white gene is less dominent than the orange in the conservation of orange tigers, as shikana was mated with a white tiger and as far as i know all the cubs have been orange ( i could be wrong).
 
blackpanther said:
i for one would be interested in the pedigree for the white tigers at zion, craig did say he sourced them from unrelated sources in America, however my reading suggests that all white tigers in captivitiy are related to one pairing of cat (i could be wrong).

i imagine that the white gene is less dominent than the orange in the conservation of orange tigers, as shikana was mated with a white tiger and as far as i know all the cubs have been orange ( i could be wrong).
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Blackpanther the white gene is recessive so if a normal and white tiger breed assuming the normal tiger has the recessive gene there is a one two chance of producing white young (have i got that right? long time since I did this sort of things :p).

However its possible if both normal tigers carried the gene than there would be a 1 in 4 chance of white offspring.

You are right in a way that the white tiger are nearly all from one line. However more importantly which has been mentioned before is that most white tigers are not pure Bengal tigers, therefore making them useless to the captive program with Bengals.
 
The gene to produce white tigers is an autosomal recessive.

A white tiger bred with a normal will produce 100% heterozygous tigers (looks normal but carries the mutant gene).

Two heterozygous tigers bred together will produce 25% white, 25% normal and 50% hets (so 1 in 4 will be White).

A White bred to a Het will produce 50% White and 50% Hets.

:p

Hix
 
taun said:
Blackpanther the white gene is recessive so if a normal and white tiger breed assuming the normal tiger has the recessive gene there is a one two chance of producing white young (have i got that right? long time since I did this sort of things :p).

However its possible if both normal tigers carried the gene than there would be a 1 in 4 chance of white offspring.

You are right in a way that the white tiger are nearly all from one line. However more importantly which has been mentioned before is that most white tigers are not pure Bengal tigers, therefore making them useless to the captive program with Bengals.
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#

Hi Tuan (reference to monkey world? :))

i was gonna say recessive but wasn't that confident about it, even if thats so, i'm sure craig said that shikana had the recessive gene, and if it is the case of a 1 in 2 chance of her having a white cub, surely either khali or indra should have been white, if i understand the genetics of course.

as for the tiger back ground, i'm sure i read somewhere that whites have been bred with amurs to make them bigger??????????

anyways thanks for answering my questions :D its much appriciated, i have done behavioural genetics at uni, but this is a diff thing all together.
 
blackpanther said:
#

Hi Tuan (reference to monkey world? :))

i was gonna say recessive but wasn't that confident about it, even if thats so, i'm sure craig said that shikana had the recessive gene, and if it is the case of a 1 in 2 chance of her having a white cub, surely either khali or indra should have been white, if i understand the genetics of course.

as for the tiger back ground, i'm sure i read somewhere that whites have been bred with amurs to make them bigger??????????
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Firstly, yes it is ;)

Second, No just because it’s a one in two chance doesn't mean that two cubs born will be one of each, its chance! Just like the sex of babies just because a woman had a boy last times doesn't mean she will automatically have girl next time she has a child.

Lastly, you are correct.

Thanks Hix's for the better explanation of it all.
 
taun said:
Firstly, yes it is ;)

Second, No just because it’s a one in two chance doesn't mean that two cubs born will be one of each, its chance! Just like the sex of babies just because a woman had a boy last times doesn't mean she will automatically have girl next time she has a child.

Lastly, you are correct.

Thanks Hix's for the better explanation of it all.
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i've watched the show and i'm hoping to visit asap :)

yes i would have to agree with you thanks hix, i'm better in percentages than fractions lol :D

tuan i hadn't thought of it that way lol doh me, i have done some researching and seen pictures of the different sub species, i guess it would be hard tell just by looking if they were pure bred or not, from what i remember abu and jaduh were massive rewa was smaller but bigger than shikana (or possibly the same size). grrrrrrrrrr would really love to know their pedigree's i found a website with some on, with the links to the pedigree's of the origional white tigers but no mention of those three, unless he changed their names or as he says they really are unrelated, this has got my interest up,

in keeping with the topic i am glad to know that they have raised enough to send dalu home :)
 
The only white tiger ever caught was a bengal called Rohan (I believe) in India in the 1950's... He was bred with a orange coated Bengal... He was then bred with his daughter to ensure the recessive gene was present, ergo all white tigers are inbred...

Over time they have been bred with Siberian/Amurs mainly to increase their size... A large number of white cubs have huge problems with deformities and cancer problems due to this earlier inbreeding, many of them have to be put down soon after birth, they are pretty to look at but ultimately a waste of conservation space...

There are between 2,000 - 4,000 tigers left in the wild and up to 10,000 in various forms of captivity around the world... Very few of them are of the 5 pure bred sub species of tiger remaining:

Bengal
Malay
South China
Amur
Sumartran

This is the information as I have read (and remembered) it, please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it demonstrates why this type of park is so bad for those of us who love zoos, for the misguided information it spews forth and the bad publicity shone on the zoo sector when these parks go wrong...

Please don't support institutions with white tigers or who are not moving to pure strains of tigers...
 
NZ Jeremy said:
The only white tiger ever caught was a bengal called Rohan (I believe) in India in the 1950's... He was bred with a orange coated Bengal... He was then bred with his daughter to ensure the recessive gene was present, ergo all white tigers are inbred...

Over time they have been bred with Siberian/Amurs mainly to increase their size... A large number of white cubs have huge problems with deformities and cancer problems due to this earlier inbreeding, many of them have to be put down soon after birth, they are pretty to look at but ultimately a waste of conservation space...

There are between 2,000 - 4,000 tigers left in the wild and up to 10,000 in various forms of captivity around the world... Very few of them are of the 5 pure bred sub species of tiger remaining:

Bengal
Malay
South China
Amur
Sumartran

This is the information as I have read (and remembered) it, please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it demonstrates why this type of park is so bad for those of us who love zoos, for the misguided information it spews forth and the bad publicity shone on the zoo sector when these parks go wrong...

Please don't support institutions with white tigers or who are not moving to pure strains of tigers...
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And here's WHY we shouldn't support such institutions we get results like poor Kenny

Goings on at the Mad Bush Farm: Guess the animal

I haven't actually started the post as such take a look at the photo:D
 
The Indo-Chinese tiger is the more usual sub-species of the 5 given; the Malaysian has disputed status as the '6th' sub-species. Mohan was the white tiger founder from 1951.
 
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