Your fantasy breeding pair for your zoo

[condor]

Do you really think there are any wild south china tigers left? The only people who believe that are the Chinese government.

Probably either extinct or functionally extinct in the wild. But although the captive population is small and has inbreeding problems - they're still breeding. From 57 specimens in 2005 to 72 specimens in 2007. Don't have more recent numbers but I know there has been breeding since then. I have to disagree with the earlier poster that said the Chinese don't know what they're doing in conservation. They are as good as anyone when they really try. I think their giant panda programs show that. Some of them are top notch and match the best conservation programs we have in Europe or USA. The problem is that for most species the Chinese people in power and with access to the money just don't seem to care.

Fantasy breding pair, preferably not in a zoo: Me and Scarlett Johansson (sorry to my wife )

More serious fantasy breding pair/group in a zoo by continent. Some have been kept or are still kept in a few places:

--EUROPE
saiga (formerly in east Europe)
--ASIA
saola
Tibetan antelope
hairy babirusa
Sumatran rhino.
golden snub-nosed monkey
Indus/Ganges river dolphin
Bornean falconet
Philippine eagle
crested ibis
bristlehead
earless monitor
--OCEANIA
numbat
dingiso tree kangaroo
blue bird-of-paradise
ribbon-tailed astrapia
Wilson's bird-of-paradise
Biak paradise kingfisher
red-breasted pygmy parrot
kakapo
ultramarine lorikeet
superb lyrebird
thorny devil
corroboree frog
goliath birdwing
--AFRICA
zebra duiker
Ethiopian wolf
indri
golden bamboo lemur
white-breasted guineafowl
helmet vanga
Cameroon sailfin chameleon
goliath frog
--SOUTH AMERICA
yellow-tailed woolly monkey
red uakari
mountain tapir
hoatzin
long-whiskered owlet
yellow-eared parrot
vulturine parrot
crimson topaz
sword-billed hummingbird
marine iguana
blue anole
Titicaca water frog
titan beetle
--NORTH AMERICA
Kermode bear
imperial amazon
resplendent quetzal
--ANTARCTIC AND OCEANS
ribbon seal
leopard seal
emperor penguin
thresher shark
sailfish
Antarctic cod
garish hind
coelacanth
yellow-bellied sea snake
leatherback sea turtle
Humboldt squid

I`ll stop there before I get carried away

oops, I did

 

[Blackduiker]

Blackduiker

I would list the following for the Los Angeles Zoo:

Giant Panda
Javan Rhinoceros
Mountain Gorilla
Indri
Mountain Tapir (new gene pool)
Tahiti Blue Lori
Blue Bird of Paradise
Bonobo
Salt Water Crocodile
Monkey-eating Eagle
Brown Hyena
Satin Bowerbird
Black-footed Ferret
Dhole
Golden Langur
Clouded Leopard
Sea Otter
Black Rhinoceros
Sumatran Rhinoceros
Nyala
Mountain Anoa
Proboscis Monkey

 

[Whats an Ounce]

I have to disagree with the earlier poster that said the Chinese don't know what they're doing in conservation. They are as good as anyone when they really try. I think their giant panda programs show that. Some of them are top notch and match the best conservation programs we have in Europe or USA.

That's the key point. "When they really try".
They just don't, not until the international pressure overwhelms them to. I went to the Wolong National Nature Reserve over ten years ago and it was, to be kind, very poor. The pandas were not kept in the best of conditions and the amount of excrement on the bare concrete cages they were kept in was eye-watering. From what I've read, the conditions have improved since, and in no small point, due to the aid of international researchers and conservation colleagues.

As my mother always says when I reproach on her on the subject. " How can you expect the Chinese government to spend money on their animals when the people are so poor?" And let's not be fooled by television, the majority of Chinese people do still live in pretty (by our standards) squalid conditions. Conservation is far down on China's list of priorities. That's why everything in the Yangtze is extinct or almost so.

In the pursuit of economic supremacy, nature does tend to suffer. It happened in the USA and it's now happening in China. And until conservation can be proven to help the Chinese economy, there will be little money spent on it, and hence little experience gained, and hence they still won't know what they're doing in conservation.

I await your rebuttle sir.

But I have to agree with you a pair of Simien Foxes would definitely be on my wishlist. (As well as any paradise kingfisher or moustached kingfisher)

 

[foz]

@ Whats an Ounce, allow me to rebuttle.

All countries go (or have yet to go) through the same process of economic development resulting in a rpaid loss of biodiversity for the region. In many ways the only way that China can be considred worse is simply down to the huge scale. Can we really consider it worse than periods of European or American history? Overall increasing the quality of life for the human population has always been seen as a bigger priority than the conservation of biodiversity.

In (most) LDC's where biodiversity is still largely intact and impacts are minimal they too are looking for ways of driving economic development, based on the same model of development. I can only think of Bhutan where focus is not placed on economic development but on 'Gross National Happiness' (which in my view is a nice idea but seems a bit contrived), and where the conservation of forest is written into their constitution.

 

[Zambar]

In an ideal world I would want a pair of indri.

Alan

Agree with you there; I hadn't really seen much footage of them till Madagascar, and they have such a weirdly human and otherwordly quality about them, fab animals.

I could go on forever if it's fantasy, but realistically, I'd like a pair of clouded leopards for Marwell.

 

[Pertinax]

I went to the Wolong National Nature Reserve over ten years ago and it was, to be kind, very poor. The pandas were not kept in the best of conditions and the amount of excrement on the bare concrete cages they were kept in was eye-watering. From what I've read, the conditions have improved since, and in no small point, due to the aid of international researchers and conservation colleagues.

I have heard that many times over. We see pictures of Pandas frolicking in their outside semi-natural enclosures but the reality is that most of them are(or were) confined to those draughty concrete barred cells for much of the time. I'm wondering how much things have really improved for them in recent years?

And do the few cubs that have been bred in the 'wealthy' zoos outside China face far poorer surroundings when they are returned to China.

China do seem to have cracked many of the problems of breeding them in captivity- though the photos of large numbers of same-aged young being kept in a 'nursery' does make me think of a 'Panda factory' where high breeding rates take priority over most other concerns.

 

[Kudu21]

I'd love to see any pairs of the following:

-Saiga (Russian or Mongolian)
-Giant Sable Antelope
-Mountain Nyala
-Zebra Duiker
-Jentink's Duiker
-Altai Argali
-Chilean Huemul
-Chiru
-Vicuña
-Wisent
-African Forest Elephant
-African Forest Buffalo

 

[Javan Rhino]

I'd love to see any pairs of the following:
-Vicuña
-African Forest Buffalo

I'm always amazed at how much I take these for granted at Chester. As such, I'm sure that there are several species in North America taken for granted that cannot be seen over here.

 

[Whats an Ounce]

@ foz.

I agree with you completely, and in many ways you are reinforcing my point.

All countries do tend to follow a roughly similar timeline on the road to economic supremacy and we can pretty much equate where China is now to where the USA was a hundred years ago when we (humanity that is, I'm not american) lost the Passenger Pigeon and the Carolina Parakeet, and the California Condor and Whooping Crane were almost driven to extinction.

The current situation in China is very similar: two countries, on the brink of becoming the world's economic superpower, where the development of wealth and human quality of life are far and above more important than anything else. So currently, conservation in China is far down the list of priorities (just as it was in Russia when the Tarpan departed). It is not worse at all, it's exactly the same.

Which is why it is only logical to assume, that in the next few decades, the fairly high rate of extinction in China will continue unless they allow outside intervention of countries who are further up the economic evolutionary scale (where conservation has become more important) (but that's not likely to happen) or until the Chinese themselves feel that they have sufficiently improved so that conservation becomes a slightly higher priority.

China is no better, no worse, simply a bit behind in the timeline.



@Pertinax

Panda reproduction does sometimes feel like a numbers game to the Chinese. But at least it's a start. Maybe this generation will lead crappy lives, but at least this gives a chance for a further genereation and a further generation who may yet be given better living conditions.
The "factory" notion also makes me fear the, at least to me, very probable return of panda diplomacy, which seemed to have died down but is now once again becoming a la mode.

 

[foz]

Perfectly agreed

 

[Eagle]

Javan leopard!

 

[condor]

I await your rebuttle sir.

I'm not sure what there is to rebuttle. I see little in your newer posts that goes against my earlier post. Because you mentioned you were in China 10 years ago I will mention that I was in China last year (late June-early July) but that really doesn't matter. There is plenty of information exiting China that hasn't been censored first and everybody that tries to keep up to date with that can form a valid opinion. Are there giant pandas kept under terrible conditions in China? Certainly yes. Are there many people living under terrible conditions in China: Certainly yes. I never claimed otherwise. Are there giant pandas kept in excellent facilities: Certainly yes, even though they had some recent problems with space after the disastrous 2008 earthquake that killed thousands of people and destroyed several panda facilities. For balance, the part of your earlier post that I referred to in my last post:

Let's face it, China, at the risk of offending half of my family, have no clue what they're doing when it comes to conservation...

... which is incorrect but from reading your later posts the distinction between 'they don't have a clue' and 'they can but don't care' is more evident. I did fully acknowledge that there are many cases where they simply don't care

The problem is that for most species the Chinese people in power and with access to the money just don't seem to care.

Personally I don't care what makes them care. If external pressure makes them care that is fine with me. I deal with results (damage from my line of work), not why people do things but external pressure is a main driving force everywhere in the world. The number of European farmers that voluntarily limit their use of pesticides is very low compared to the ones that do it because they have to. Despite being quite wealthy when compared to people in most of the world (even after the crisis) European consumers consistently buy more eggs from battery farms than free range. Many other European examples of no pressure, few results. I guess the same applies to USA.

In fairness, there can be no doubts that the Chinese had a lot of help from western scientists (and I've never claimed otherwise) but they've been fast learners. It´s no coincidence that a large part of the scientific papers that have been published on pandas in recent years only have had Chinese authors (not even one westerner as would be expected if they still were leading the way). Even the description of the new qinlingensis race in the prestigious Journal of Mammalogy was by an all Chinese team. The speed in which some of their universities have climbed the ladder of various rating systems for universities worldwide is unrivalled. And a bit scary if you live in a country where politicians say things like 'we can't compete on payrolls but we can compete on knowledge'.
__________________________

Because my previous list clearly was too short I feel urged to to add more

Temperate southern South America exhibit with breeding pairs/groups (some commonly kept, some not)
--Ocean: Commerson's dolphin
--Coast: South American fur seal
--Coast, kept together: King penguin, macaroni penguin, magellanic penguin, gentoo penguin, imperial shag, Chilean seaside cinclodes, black-necked swan, kelp goose, flightless steamerduck (swan and duck perhaps too aggressive for the rest?)
--Nothofagus forest with fast stream, kept together: Magellanic woodpecker, Austral parakeet (risky with woodpecker?), torrent duck.
--Carnivores, separate enclosures: Guiña cat, Darwin's fox, Andean condor, mountain caracara (caracara and condor together?)

 

[Arizona Docent]

Temperate southern South America exhibit with breeding pairs/groups...Carnivores, separate enclosures: Kodkod cat...

I agree, but just food for thought, there is a move to stop calling them kodkod and start using the spanish name guigna (pronounced gweenya). Apparently kodkod was a name the natives originally applied to the pampas cat, a different species. Jim Sanderson of the Small Wild Cat Conservation Federation is trying to get everyone to use guigna now.

 

[Whats an Ounce]

... which is incorrect but from reading your later posts the distinction between 'they don't have a clue' and 'they can but don't care' is more evident. I did fully acknowledge that there are many cases where they simply don't care

Sorry, yes, I can see where this argument (actually in general it's been feeling more like an agreement) has gone astray. And it is indeed a fault of omission on my part.

I believe whole-heartedly that the Chinese scientists know what they're doing and they're doing it first class. You're right, there is so much good research coming out of China right now.

When I said they don't have a clue, I was referring to the Chinese Government and the policy makers, I should have made it more clear.
It is they who don't have a clue. For example let's just look at the decision to declare the Manchurian Tiger a national emblem the same year Mao decided to declare the South China Tiger a pest (I know it's a long time ago). Or the continuing decision to fund all these very expensive Panda breeding exercises when a fraction of that money could have done wonders for the Hainan Gibbon.

I still believe that the people at the top, who allocate where public funding goes do not "get" what conservation is all about. I want to find more cases to justify this but I actually need to get to bed, so I will return in 21 hours to complete this post... probably

 

[Jabiru96]

Australia has none of these so this would be something interesting:

Okapi
Indochinese Tiger
African Forest Elephant
Duiker (any species)
Olive Baboon
Drill
Mandrill
Safika (any species/sub-species)
Foosa
Pure Reticulated Giraffe
Banded Mongoose

And more of the following that are already in our region:

African Bush Elephant
Francois langur
Brazilian Tapir
Maned Wold
Spotted Hyena
Dhole
Andean Condor
Anaconda
Tuatara
Fiordland Crested Penguin (rescues)
Leopard Seal (rescues)
Pure Western Chimpanzees

And some that are rare/non existent in zoos overseas:

Zanzibar Red Colobus
Mountain Gorilla
Proboscis Monkey
Himalayan Brown Bear
Quetzal
Diana Monkey

 

[Maguari]

And some that are rare/non existent in zoos overseas:

Zanzibar Red Colobus
Mountain Gorilla
Proboscis Monkey
Himalayan Brown Bear
Quetzal
Diana Monkey

Diana Monkeys are not common but they're nothing like as unusual as the other species on that list - around 25 European zoos have the species (and 10 have the related Roloway Monkey).



Red Colobus are a superb choice - certainly would be my top primate pick.

 

[Jordan-Jaguar97]

Mine would be Iberian Lynx or Drill Monkey.

 

[Pertinax]

Red Colobus are a superb choice - certainly would be my top primate pick.

I don't think you can keep them alive in captivity very long though.

 

[Maguari]

I don't think you can keep them alive in captivity very long though.

The thread title does say 'fantasy', though.


To be honest, I'm not sure how many attempts there have been to keep Red Colobus. The zoo community has much more experience now with the black-and-white forms so maybe it'd be more feasible - but I think it'd be a brave zoo that took them on.

 

[Javan Rhino]

The thread title does say 'fantasy', though.


To be honest, I'm not sure how many attempts there have been to keep Red Colobus. The zoo community has much more experience now with the black-and-white forms so maybe it'd be more feasible - but I think it'd be a brave zoo that took them on.

Just what I was thinking on your first point

As for your second point, I believe that any animal can be kept alive in captivity, it's just we don't have the experience or knowledge to care for some (or at least didn't in some cases and do now).

It was considered difficult/impossible to keep Sumatran rhino alive I believe, but now that Cincinnati has the experience and the knowledge they seem to have done a decent job, even having 3 calves before losing their breeding female Emi.

It was also considered impossible to keep three-toed sloths due to a difficult diet, however now that this diet has been cracked I believe there is somewhere in the states exhibiting them?

I think it was Monteray Bay Aquarium (not sure) even manages to keep Great white sharks alive longer than was ever expected (though not indefinately, any sharks have been released after time - is it a rescue?)

I would imagine that some species that died out in captivity due to difficult husbandary could be successful if anybody took the first step to trying again (though I stress not all of them).