Zoo/Aquarium Hot Takes

[La Cucaracha]

Not with that attitude.

I'm not sure why I'm to blame for extremists being the way they are. Would you like to give an anecdotal about convincing an animal liberationist the value of zoos?

It’s hardly ‘squeamish’ to not want a zoo to create a spectacle by feeding a live donkey to a tiger. In a captive environment there is simply no need for it. How would any collection claim an animal welfare remit and do that.

I'm not arguing for live feeding donkeys. I'm pointing out the difference in cultural attitudes. If nobody in Europe is squeamish about carcass feedings as America is, then that's great. Most Americans probably aren't either, but there's definitely enough of them to complain and make it less commonplace.

If it is just Americans, then why is that?

There’s no evidence people won’t change their minds when in a rational and sensible discussion. Indeed I think it’s a lot less likely any anti zoo person would change their mind in discussion with you if all you do is chuck around things like all animal right activists want to feed tofu to tigers and so no tigers will be kept in zoos any more. That’s just nonsense really isn’t it.

Not only was I not strawmanning about carcass feedings (see: http://www.wnycstudios.org/story/91552-zoos/), but you are actively strawmanning about my debate tactics with anti zoo activists, the feasibility to convince them, and that I'm somehow against animal welfare. Where is the evidence you can convince PETA followers the value of zoos? Where is the evidence I tell anti zoo people they're ridiculous for wanting to feed tofu to lions? Many anti zoo people are hunters. Would you believe that, or do you need a poll?

AZA used to help oversee the welfare of horses slaughtered in USDA plants as zoos are a significant consumer of horse flesh, but horse slaughter has been federally illegal in the US for several years. So those lame horses have been since transported long distance to Mexican and Canadian slaughterhouses, where the animal welfare is measurably worse. AZA, afaik, did not make any message to the public about the realities of regulated horse slaughter vs the conceived cruelties. Yes, this is an American centric issue, but I'm talking about the AZA and not the WAZA.
Personally, I'm concerned that it won't stop with rabbit carcasses fed on Easter or horse slaughter. Especially with recent attempts to pass state legislatures that would effectively halt any and all animal agriculture.

Happy Christmas.

 

[La Cucaracha]

Vaquitas in captivity just is not viable at this point, unfortunately.

So what are the alternatives? Were the remaining California condors at one time not all put in zoos?

Nothing wrong with breeding highly inbred cats prone to health problems and genetic defects? I'm going to beg to differ. Many of the health problems with white tigers are due to their genes and are not found in normally colored littermates, even inbred ones. Not to mention lack of conservation value.

They are found in the wild, true - but extremely rarely. There are far more white tigers in captivity than have ever been recorded in the wild. The variant is only common because of continued inbreeding, which has led to more white tigers and more issues with their health.

I support the AZA on the white tiger opinion as the cats serve very little conservation value, are genetically poor, and often suffer various heath problems.

Do you have any peer reviewed journal sources that say white tigers are inherently more defective than inbred orange tigers? And how is conservation measured? Zoochatters and zoo professionals will often argue ABC animals are necessary to bring in admission sales needed for conservation of less popular and known species. If a white tiger on display helps fund the Congo peafowl breeding program, is it not conservation?

 

[StoppableSan]

So what are the alternatives? Were the remaining California condors at one time not all put in zoos?

The alternative is just pulling a Northern white rhino and having armed guards/"sea patrols" protecting the last vaquitas. And any attempt to bring vaquita into captivity has always led to disaster - the condors were much more realistic as far as capture, breeding and eventual release.

 

[Westcoastperson]

So what are the alternatives? Were the remaining California condors at one time not all put in zoos?

Yes but when the California Condors were captured they didn’t ram into their exhibit walls or have heart attacks. (One happened to a Vaquita the other happened to some sort of Neo-tropical Cetacean can’t remember). The alternatives are heavy in-Situ conservation through cultural outreaches in the local communities.

Do you have any peer reviewed journal sources that say white tigers are inherently more defective than inbred orange tigers? And how is conservation measured? Zoochatters and zoo professionals will often argue ABC animals are necessary to bring in admission sales needed for conservation of less popular and known species. If a white tiger on display helps fund the Congo peafowl breeding program, is it not conservation?

The truth about white tigers Not a peer reviewed journal but a high class scientific organization.
White Tigers and Normal Tigers both have the same ABC value the difference is normal tigers have true conservation value in the wild.

 

[Great Argus]

So what are the alternatives? Were the remaining California condors at one time not all put in zoos?

Just because it worked with one species does not mean it will work with every species. What part of "capturing a Vaquita usually results in its death" leaves any implication captivity is an option? @StoppableSan is probably the closest to the solution as it stands, although it's not a very good solution. Sea Shepherd has taken it upon themselves to do some protection, but tensions and conflict are high in the upper Gulf and we do not know what effects the boats are having underwater. We also have no way of actually tracking the individual Vaquita, making direct protection virtually impossible.

Do you have any peer reviewed journal sources that say white tigers are inherently more defective than inbred orange tigers?

Here's one looking at inbreeding as related to mortality anyways - white tigers are distinctly prominent as experiencing issues.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.animalmedicalresearch.org/Vol.7_Issue-1_June_2017/Siddhartha%20Prasad.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjokbGx2ZX8AhVknGoFHQTDB984UBAWegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw3JGUnDk7kznYlMX-8gF9y3

The AZA's report on the subject of problematic genes, including many references.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...MhAWegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw0L3ybjvyU-wAHt6WlhfLeg

Also a current article where veterinary assessment points to inbreeding as the likely cause of mortality in a young white cub. Its siblings are also exhibiting the same symptoms.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...C3AnoECCQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3ECvhpe5NeR6RCi9KZ-S2C

And how is conservation measured? Zoochatters and zoo professionals will often argue ABC animals are necessary to bring in admission sales needed for conservation of less popular and known species.

There are plenty of other ABC animals including normal colored tigers that are better used for such purposes than white tigers.

If a white tiger on display helps fund the Congo peafowl breeding program, is it not conservation?

Is it actually conservation to breed animals with defects for display to fund conservation of purebred animals? That seems like sending the wrong message. Also Congo Peafowl is a bad example as relatively few zoos have them and all birds are owned by one zoo anyways (Antwerp). Pretty certain none of the zoos that have them also have white tigers.

 

[15399]

Do you have any peer reviewed journal sources that say white tigers are inherently more defective than inbred orange tigers? And how is conservation measured? Zoochatters and zoo professionals will often argue ABC animals are necessary to bring in admission sales needed for conservation of less popular and known species. If a white tiger on display helps fund the Congo peafowl breeding program, is it not conservation?

If AZA Zoos were okay with inbred orange tigers, then that'd be a fair argument. However, AZA Zoos don't inbreed tigers. Period. AZA Zoos keep careful track of the genetics of a population (that's why we have studbooks) and carefully plan what the best genetic matches are for breeding animals. Inbreeding is only done as a last resort in struggling populations, when there is not another option. The AZA doesn't inbreed Tigers, however, because there are three sustainable populations of subspecific Tigers in the US- malayan, sumatran, and amur. Furthermore, in most cases, AZA breeding programs don't look at specific traits (e.g. coat color) that don't have a direct effect on the population. Perhaps not in tigers, but certainly in lions and a few other species, there is a small number of leucistic individuals in the breeding program- because those individuals are not inbred and have strong genetic value. The AZA, however, is not going to breed lions for the leucism trait, but also are not going to exclude animals from the population purely due to this trait. So there may not be a difference between inbred white tigers and inbred orange tigers- I don't have any data on it one way or the other, however the AZA isn't going to be working with inbred tigers as it is so that's a moot point. If there was, by any chance, a non-inbred, healthy, subspecific white tiger, then I would expect that the AZA wouldn't have any problem with its inclusion in a breeding program.

I'm not sure why I'm to blame for extremists being the way they are. Would you like to give an anecdotal about convincing an animal liberationist the value of zoos?

Nobody is blaming you for extremists being the way they are. However, it is concerning that you equate anyone against zoos with being an extremist. Yes, there are extremists who are against zoos. However, most people who are against zoos are not extremists. These are the people we are saying can change their opinions, provided that both sides are willing to have a good-intentioned conversation. Many people, who are not extremists, have legitimate concerns about Zoos, and that does not make them extremists, it simply makes them people with an opinion that disagrees with yours. This is especially true with the number of absolutely horrible roadside zoos out there. If one is an extremist for being against animals in captivity, then surely one is also an extremist for being okay with animals living in tiny cages at roadside zoos, no?

 

[TeaLovingDave]

What part of "capturing a Vaquita usually results in its death" leaves any implication captivity is an option?

To clarify, that statement is actually something of an exaggeration as it has only been attempted two or three times full stop but the important core of the point remains; the population is now *so* low that even isolated deaths during the capture process represent an unacceptable loss margin.

Had the first efforts been made a decade or two previously, when the first calls to do so were made and the world population was higher by at least an order of magnitude - only to be stymied by the anti-captivity lobby until it was too late - I suspect we would all be singing from a different hymn-sheet.

 

[Lafone]

I'm not sure why I'm to blame for extremists being the way they are. Would you like to give an anecdotal about convincing an animal liberationist the value of zoos?



I'm not arguing for live feeding donkeys. I'm pointing out the difference in cultural attitudes. If nobody in Europe is squeamish about carcass feedings as America is, then that's great. Most Americans probably aren't either, but there's definitely enough of them to complain and make it less commonplace.

If it is just Americans, then why is that?



Not only was I not strawmanning about carcass feedings (see: http://www.wnycstudios.org/story/91552-zoos/), but you are actively strawmanning about my debate tactics with anti zoo activists, the feasibility to convince them, and that I'm somehow against animal welfare. Where is the evidence you can convince PETA followers the value of zoos? Where is the evidence I tell anti zoo people they're ridiculous for wanting to feed tofu to lions? Many anti zoo people are hunters. Would you believe that, or do you need a poll?

AZA used to help oversee the welfare of horses slaughtered in USDA plants as zoos are a significant consumer of horse flesh, but horse slaughter has been federally illegal in the US for several years. So those lame horses have been since transported long distance to Mexican and Canadian slaughterhouses, where the animal welfare is measurably worse. AZA, afaik, did not make any message to the public about the realities of regulated horse slaughter vs the conceived cruelties. Yes, this is an American centric issue, but I'm talking about the AZA and not the WAZA.
Personally, I'm concerned that it won't stop with rabbit carcasses fed on Easter or horse slaughter. Especially with recent attempts to pass state legislatures that would effectively halt any and all animal agriculture.

Happy Christmas.

Happy Xmas to all!

Would I believe most or even many anti zoo people are hunters? No if you look at zoos or people world wide. Perhaps the case in the USA. However the world of captive animals extends beyond that. In any case I’m not sure why it would be relevant.

As mentioned above you appear from your examples to be making the case that all anti zoo people are PETA or extremists or have dramatic views you can’t argue with. But there are lots of people who are either on the fence or not vociferously anti that wouldn’t really know who PETA are. Where is your evidence that every person who dislikes the idea of animals in captivity is a PETA supporter?

As I said your examples are at the dramatic end of the debate, in my view and the straw man simply isn’t that helpful when talking about the nuances of keeping captive animals. I’ve had discussions at zoos with people who are making comments which would suggest they are ‘anti zoo’ - for example about carnivore pacing etc. However perhaps they are just genuinely concerned? Sometimes people just need more information - isn’t that the fun of having zoo visiting etc as a hobby? Always so much to learn.

I heard people saying ‘I usually think zoos are cruel but these birds seem so happy’ looking at the storks on a zoo visit just the other day. You could argue that the conversion opportunities to help people be more ‘pro’ zoo happen with people visiting zoos and seeing great examples of animal keeping.

I hope we are all pro welfare here.

In the example of the horses exported for slaughter the excess breeding and poor treatment of animals, over breeding them, ruining them for sport and treating them as disposable trash is an example of something that should be controlled far further up the chain than at slaughter. It’s a scandal indeed but where’s the debate on why some horses are over bred and treated like crap in the first place? Not cutting through all the time because challenges to poor welfare are often labelled as extreme and unsupportable.

I am completely against keeping captive zoo animals in restrictive, poor or unsuitable conditions, breeding excess animals for photos and inappropriate handling, keeping large carnivores as if they are sports cars and compensating for something, or breeding unsound populations purely for public entertainment. Good zoos don’t do those things. So more of those and less poor ones is a win all round.

 

[Ursus]

I am anti-zoo when it comes to bad husbandry & welfare.

I am pro-zoo when it comes to good husbandry & welfare.

I am both.

 

[Penshet]

I am anti-zoo when it comes to bad husbandry & welfare.

I am pro-zoo when it comes to good husbandry & welfare.

I am both.

Good zoos are good. Bad zoos are bad. This isn't a hot take, really.

 

[La Cucaracha]

In the example of the horses exported for slaughter the excess breeding and poor treatment of animals, over breeding them, ruining them for sport and treating them as disposable trash is an example of something that should be controlled far further up the chain than at slaughter. It’s a scandal indeed but where’s the debate on why some horses are over bred and treated like crap in the first place? Not cutting through all the time because challenges to poor welfare are often labelled as extreme and unsupportable.

So what do you suggest zoos feed wild carnivores instead? "Normal livestock"? Horses raised specifically for slaughter? Horse meat is the meat of choice by many reputable zoos because of its nutritional qualities. This is the very reason I'm not against horse slaughter.

 

[15399]

So what do you suggest zoos feed wild carnivores instead? "Normal livestock"? Horses raised specifically for slaughter? Horse meat is the meat of choice by many reputable zoos because of its nutritional qualities. This is the very reason I'm not against horse slaughter.

The type of meat used isn't the issue. It's the treatment of the animals prior to being used as meat and the health and safety of using the meat. The USDA stopped inspecting horse meat back in 2007, meaning that if US Zoos wanted to get domestic horse meat, there would be no way to ensure that the animals were treated humanely and that the meat was produced in a safe, clean manner. As such, the safer and more ethical option is to import horse meat from Canada, where it is still regulated. Furthermore, most reputable zoos don't have one "meat of choice" that is their sole meat source for animals. Most will use a combination of different types of meat because variety tends to be the healthiest option for animals. For instance, a carnivore may be fed chicken one day, cow the next day, and then horse on the third day. Some zoos will also incorporate into the diet whole small prey (e.g. rats, guinea pigs, quail, chickens, etc.) and commercially available meat mixes, as well as carcasses. In terms of enrichment and in terms of overall physical health, variety in diet tends to be beneficial for any taxa (barring extremely specialized eaters, of course). Really the only important thing is that zoo carnivores aren't fed super market grade meats. It's not ideal to be feeding ground beef and filet mignon to a lion, but feeding them cow hearts and other of those rougher, meatier components is a very healthy diet. But overall, as long as the carnivores are being fed ethically produced, clean, disease-free meat, I don't care what sort of animal is being fed, whether it be horses, cows, chickens, deer, rats, or a combination of any number of vertebrate prey items.

 

[Aardwolf]

It's discontinued now, but for a while Johnson and Johnson (the sausage folks, yes) were offered a pork diet for zoo carnivores, and I have never seen a commercial meat diet that was so universally loved by all the animals. Not only did they love the meat, but if you took the blood and used it for ice treats the animals ACTUALLY used them. We didn't use it as a sole staple, rotating it with beef and horse-based diets, but it was hands down the favorite. I was so sad when they stopped offering it

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Johnson and Johnson (the sausage folks, yes)

I wouldn't have called them the "sausage folks" first and foremost I'd tend to associate them with baby powder and other pharmaceuticals!

I've literally never heard of Johnson & Johnson manufacturing sausages - and Google draws a blank on the matter too!

 

[15399]

I wouldn't have called them the "sausage folks" first and foremost I'd tend to associate them with baby powder and other pharmaceuticals!

I've literally never heard of Johnson & Johnson manufacturing sausages - and Google draws a blank on the matter too!

I think @Aardwolf may have meant Johnsonville, which is a sausage company?

 

[Aardwolf]

I wouldn't have called them the "sausage folks" first and foremost I'd tend to associate them with baby powder and other pharmaceuticals!

I've literally never heard of Johnson & Johnson manufacturing sausages - and Google draws a blank on the matter too!

Whoops, I meant to say Johnsonville!

 

[Lafone]

So what do you suggest zoos feed wild carnivores instead? "Normal livestock"? Horses raised specifically for slaughter? Horse meat is the meat of choice by many reputable zoos because of its nutritional qualities. This is the very reason I'm not against horse slaughter.

No I was simply pointing out the issue of horse mistreatment. And that being a rather larger issue than where horses are slaughtered. I think it would be hard to read my post as an opposition to feeding horse meat or any meat to carnivores. I happen to be a fan of animal welfare however and don’t think it’s necessary to be cruel to any animal in the food chain however disposable you imagine them to be. At no point did I suggest any diet for zoo animals.

In your reply you’ve just illustrated the point I was making before - reducing discussion to straw men and posing questions based on something someone has not said. Oh well. Maybe I’m one of these peta supporting tofu feeding extremists we’ve heard so much about. Not.

 

[La Cucaracha]

No I was simply pointing out the issue of horse mistreatment. And that being a rather larger issue than where horses are slaughtered.

Let me rephrase my point: if you're against surplus and retired horses being slaughtered, what do you actually suggest zoos do for horse meat? That is where horse meat is supplied from in North America.

Yes, I'm also against the mistreatment of horses. Horse slaughter should not be federally illegal; it only supplies long distance transport (which is hard on old/disabled horses) to Canada.

I wish AZA zoos, a significant consumer of horse meat, were not silent on the subject.

 

[Chlidonias]

Let me rephrase my point: if you're against surplus and retired horses being slaughtered, what do you actually suggest zoos do for horse meat?

Why would you rephrase your point to ask about something Lafone never said?

 

[La Cucaracha]

Why would you rephrase your point to ask about something Lafone never said?

Maybe I'm just bad at this.

They seem to be uncomfortable with the manner horses are supplied for slaughter by their wording. I'm legitimately curious if horses intentionally bred and raised for slaughter in a humane manner would be more appealing.

I'm not trying to paint anybody here as forcing tofu on lions.