Zoo/Aquarium Hot Takes

RandomZooVisitorYT said:
Philadelphia Zoo and Denver are highly overrated
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I was talking to a local landscape architect once about zoo design. They mentioned Columbus and Disney's Animal Kingdom as good, andusing the ha-ha effect well. I was somewhat surprised they left Denver out since we're both locals, but not that much.
Denver has had its accomplishments. I'm a big fan of Predator Ridge.
But. The giraffe house is the same one from the 1960s. They've started using outdated cages for more suitable species rather than demolish them. DC probably has a better chance of getting pandas back than Denver does getting polar bears again.

Pueblo Zoo is almost more interesting. You won't see red pandas anywhere else in Colorado.
 
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La Cucaracha said:
Somewhat related about The Gorilla Foundation.

1. I've never seen such blatant ableism as people refusing to believe sign speakers that Koko couldn't sign. She was trained to say certain things at best.
2. Michael could sign better than Koko did.
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Koko could sign, obviously. But she wasn't talking. She wasn't speaking ASL, and no ape ever has. They merely learn various floating signs, and may understand what some of them mean (but certainly do not understand all of them). The Gorilla Foundation does like to exaggerate Koko's capabilities, and if you read the papers in question you'll see very little real evidence of comprehension.

EDIT: Also, the term "ableist" does not and should not apply to animals and it's honestly slightly offensive you think it does.
 
birdsandbats said:
Koko could sign, obviously. But she wasn't talking. She wasn't speaking ASL, and no ape ever has. They merely learn various floating signs, and may understand what some of them mean (but certainly do not understand all of them). The Gorilla Foundation does like to exaggerate Koko's capabilities, and if you read the papers in question you'll see very little real evidence of comprehension.

EDIT: Also, the term "ableist" does not and should not apply to animals and it's honestly slightly offensive you think it does.
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It is ableist because for whatever reason, people that do speak ASL are not a reliable source to call out Koko's inability to speak sign according to the people who "taught" (actually trained) her.
That voice isn't wider specifically because of ableism. You can't just say it's not or call it offensive to point out.
Edit: I wouldn't be saying this if Francine Patterson would admit Koko didn't really use sign to speak, because she's been told a million times!
 
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La Cucaracha said:
It is ableist because for whatever reason, people that do speak ASL are not a reliable source to call out Koko's inability to speak sign according to the people who "taught" (actually trained) her.
That voice isn't wider specifically because of ableism. You can't just say it's not or call it offensive to point out.
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Ah ok. I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Disregard my previous comment. I largely agree with you there.
 
birdsandbats said:
Ah ok. I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Disregard my previous comment. I largely agree with you there.
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It's fine.
I was more worried you'd be like "oh no, they mentioned a social issue", like other zoochatters who would rather pretend there aren't any in the zoo world. :rolleyes:

Speaking of: unpaid internships at zoos are discriminatory! I know how proud white women are of white women dominating zookeeping right now, but Hispanic people also want to work at zoos!
 
Time for some of my Ohio zoo "hot takes" lol

Columbus
- Adventure Cove and EAV are both perfectly fine exhibits. They're both a little lackluster sure but they've aged well quality-wise and are perfect for the animals that inhabit them.
- North America needed a renovation. It seems to be the general opinion on this site that it was it was fine but its lack of theming, cohesiveness and simplicity make it one of the weakest parts of the zoo currently. Even before they began moving animals out, half the exhibits were empty.
- The barn is a complete waste of space, and offers nothing other than a way to appease children. They don't even have to pay extra for the barn like several other zoo features, what is the point.
- Polar Frontier has aged horribly and should be included in the NA renovation.
- The train really needs actual viewing of the animals instead of just covered chain link fencing.
- The zoo does not need rhinos back now that Brian is gone. His space could easily be used now to expand their elephant facilities.
- The Shores needs redone almost as badly as NA. Its age SHOWS and the Aquarium is genuinely just sad.
- Australia and the Islands is one of the most captivating parts of the zoo in terms of theming.

Cincinati
- The Kangaroo Walkabout does not deserve the popularity it gets. The exhibit is small, takes like two minutes to walk through, is always crowded and offers nothing unique visually.
- The insect building is one of my favorite indoor exhibits in any zoo.
- The actual Manatee viewing in Manatee Springs is very lackluster and desperately needs the theming of the rest of the building.
- Hippo Cove is disgustingly small for two adult hippos, a juvenile female and a calf.
- So much of the zoo's theming is just wacky, really the only part Im fond of is Jungle Trails, the rest feels like its aged or just was never fully there.
- Africa does not deserve the hate. The Savanah is very nice visually despite a lack of diverse species currently.

(I have only been to Cleveland and Toledo once so I do not remember technical names for any of their regions minus Tembo Train in Toledo lol)
Cleveland
- Their elephant exhibit is one of the most unique I know of, and currently it is incredibly underutilized with an aging herd instead of a breeding herd. I would never believe it was a decade old if I wasn't told by the zoo itself. Tembo Trail in Toledo is the same age iirc and shows age a lottt more.
- A lot of their aging exhibits still hold up and likely will for many years!
- The Savanah is genuinely one of the worst hoofstock exhibits I have ever seen and needs a serious rehash.
- The theming of the zoo overall is beautiful and very well done.
- I hate the Primate, Cat and Aquatics building. It COULD be done well in theory but it is just. Not.

Toledo
- Tembo Trail is neat in IDEA but awful in execution. The animals are tossed around in a hodgepodge of region and the exhibits are very small. Half of it could and SHOULD be used for elephants down the line. Half of the area around the rhino area is straight up just overgrown and EMPTY and appears to have been that way for sometime.
- The big cat section of the zoo is not great lmao and feels cramped.
- The Arctic exhibit, while aging, is very well executed and very unique. The flow of the building is just spectacular.
 
RandomZooVisitorYT said:
Philadelphia Zoo and Denver are highly overrated
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TinoPup said:
Couldn't disagree more about Philadelphia.
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I want to preface this by saying I visited Philadelphia during avian flu, so I could feel differently if the bird sections were open, but Philadelphia was the most underwhelming zoo experience I'd ever had. Other than the reptile house (which I found to be excellent) and the aye-aye exhibit, I found the entire zoo ranged from average to severely inadequate. The giraffe and hippo exhibits rank in the five worst megafauna exhibits I've seen in an AZA zoo, and the orangutan exhibit had a serious lack of climbing opportunities. While yes, it is an improvement to its predecessor, I was also unimpressed by the Big Cat Falls area, as the exhibits were very small for lions and tigers. While the zoo does have a nice primate collection, most of the exhibits left a lot to be desired, especially those in the RACC. One exhibit I did find to be amongst the best of its kind, however, was the naked mole rat exhibit- I was impressed that they had access to the area above the tunnels, even if they are unlikely to use in much, and the tunnel areas themselves were very large too.
 
Neil chace said:
I want to preface this by saying I visited Philadelphia during avian flu, so I could feel differently if the bird sections were open, but Philadelphia was the most underwhelming zoo experience I'd ever had. Other than the reptile house (which I found to be excellent) and the aye-aye exhibit, I found the entire zoo ranged from average to severely inadequate. The giraffe and hippo exhibits rank in the five worst megafauna exhibits I've seen in an AZA zoo, and the orangutan exhibit had a serious lack of climbing opportunities. While yes, it is an improvement to its predecessor, I was also unimpressed by the Big Cat Falls area, as the exhibits were very small for lions and tigers. While the zoo does have a nice primate collection, most of the exhibits left a lot to be desired, especially those in the RACC. One exhibit I did find to be amongst the best of its kind, however, was the naked mole rat exhibit- I was impressed that they had access to the area above the tunnels, even if they are unlikely to use in much, and the tunnel areas themselves were very large too.
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Gonna address these in bullet points.
  • Philadelphia has a pretty unique bird collection spread out throughout the park - from Bird Valley to Wings of Asia to the McNeil Avian Center. I visited pre and post-Avian Flu modifications, and I made it a point to visit last year when avian flu started to die down and the penguins would be back on exhibit as well.
  • The reptile house is excellent, I do think they *could* update the signage a tad and maybe modernize a couple of the indoor spaces (the indoor Galapagos/Aldabra tortoise, dwarf crocodile and larger crocodilian spaces).
  • The giraffe exhibit, I do agree on that front, and the zoo does have plans to fill in Bird Lake to build a new space for giraffe, ostrich, Ankole cattle, etc. After that, the current giraffe space'll potentially be used as flex space for Tony the rhino or Cindy/Unna the hippos. (depending on if they do still keep hippos post Cindy/Unna given AZA's increasing requirements.)
  • I like Big Cat Falls. As a concept, being able to maximize the space for SIX big cat species and having the overhead trails is a really unique concept. I love seeing Makini and Tajiri the lions in the ground trail or one of the tigers in the overhead passage. I do think the hyper-specific theming in some enclosures depending on the original inhabitants lends itself to some good education, (termite mounds for lions, Mayan temple for jaguars, Southwestern desert for cougars, etc.) but is somewhat hindered by the cats' rotation. A snow leopard in a Mayan temple is fun for those who know about a snow leopard's original home range, but less so for anyone else. The cats do have access to all 5 habitats as well as the overhead trails, and they even netted over the lion and tiger spaces so the leopards/jaguars/cougars could use those exhibits as well.
  • The primate collection is really nice - I think PECO Primate Reserve needs more love as an exhibit concept. (now there's a bonus hot take for you guys). The orangutans do have access to the three live trees in the middle of their outdoor space, and when the trees in the gorilla exhibit are more established, the hotwire'll be taken off of those as well and the gorillas'll be able to climb as well. RACC has also improved significantly since they are focusing on smaller primates, with the only larger primate species in there being the Francois' langurs. (second hot take of the post: they should be moved over to PECO Primate Reserve in the old spectacled langur enclosure, which most recently had their golden lion tamarins and white-faced sakis.)
  • I may have to double check whether the naked mole rats do have access to the upper portion of their habitat, but if they do that's fantastic! They also put their Damaraland mole rats back on exhibit as well, which was really exciting to see.
  • If you ever revisit Philly, you may be interested in how they put their vampire bats back on exhibit as well - despite it being a diurnal space rather than a nocturnal reverse-light space, they still managed to keep it really dark for the bats. I even saw one fly for a couple seconds!
 
Neil chace said:
I want to preface this by saying I visited Philadelphia during avian flu, so I could feel differently if the bird sections were open, but Philadelphia was the most underwhelming zoo experience I'd ever had. Other than the reptile house (which I found to be excellent) and the aye-aye exhibit, I found the entire zoo ranged from average to severely inadequate. The giraffe and hippo exhibits rank in the five worst megafauna exhibits I've seen in an AZA zoo, and the orangutan exhibit had a serious lack of climbing opportunities. While yes, it is an improvement to its predecessor, I was also unimpressed by the Big Cat Falls area, as the exhibits were very small for lions and tigers. While the zoo does have a nice primate collection, most of the exhibits left a lot to be desired, especially those in the RACC. One exhibit I did find to be amongst the best of its kind, however, was the naked mole rat exhibit- I was impressed that they had access to the area above the tunnels, even if they are unlikely to use in much, and the tunnel areas themselves were very large too.
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The orangutans have climbing access to three live trees, which most people seem to be unaware of. I saw the female climbing them when I went last spring:

Orangutan in Tree

Orangutan in Tree

PECO Primate Reserve
 
PossumRoach said:
I meant to say that Cincinnati’s hippopotamus enclosure is small for the number of animals it has and to say so is not controversial.
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I'm incredibly stupid omg my complete apologies :confused:!
Sorry for autism braining on you lol
Ive seen quite a lot of positivity for Hippo Cove on this site! Its been a bit since it's come up for sure but Im glad to hear sentiments are shifting!
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I'm incredibly stupid omg my complete apologies :confused:!
Sorry for autism braining on you lol
Ive seen quite a lot of positivity for Hippo Cove on this site! Its been a bit since it's come up for sure but Im glad to hear sentiments are shifting!
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Not sure where you're seeing the positivity for it, as it's pretty universally disliked around here!
 
TinoPup said:
Not sure where you're seeing the positivity for it, as it's pretty universally disliked around here!
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Its been years since I've seen discussion about it honestly. I stalked this site without an account for years just out of laziness lol so it likely was just a small discussion or two that has since been lost to the threads, I was surprised to see that ANYONE could have positive feelings towards it honestly, to me it was the standout of a poor exhibit in what is otherwise a pretty strong zoo.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Its been years since I've seen discussion about it honestly. I stalked this site without an account for years just out of laziness lol so it likely was just a small discussion or two that has since been lost to the threads, I was surprised to see that ANYONE could have positive feelings towards it honestly, to me it was the standout of a poor exhibit in what is otherwise a pretty strong zoo.
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There was a lot of heavy discussion about it when Bibi was pregnant the second time, especially, and after the birth, if you want to dig up that thread (threads?).
 
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