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I am torn about the import. On one side, young captive-bred doucs from legal source are nice addition to european zoos, and with good research and combined experience from Dusit and Cologne, it might succeed. On the other hand, Chleby is not the right choice for such sensitive species.
 
Correct. Even such famous Zoos like San Diego, Berlin, Frankurt, Philadelphia-all with a long-time-experience in keeping sensitive primate species, failed in keeping Doucs-and Proboscis monkeys.But Experience isn't all Zoos need to keep Doucs alive. So where are all the Doucs in Cologne ? They bred them succesfully, also San Diego, but where are all these animals ? By the way-much more Doucs died at these places than young were born and raised. It is that what some poeple would call a"Success"? After all Docus at Frankfurt Zoo, who has bred them also very"sucessfully"several times,were gone( a lot! ) they said"Never again we will TRY to keep them".My respect, they kept their word until today.

But as as long as Doucs are available, why not try it again-so long-until it its works-I'm sure, someday t will works,see Singapur. But even there many Doucs has died in the past before their time.
 
From ZOO CHLEBY:

Hi!

we are very glad that most of you are supporting us and also do not believe, we would import illegally grey-shanked langurs. We are going to import red-shanked of course, but there was probably a wrong translation made by czech media servis.

Douc Langur Foundation and International Primat Protection Leagus (and perhaps others) who are spreading messages like "stop this murder" did not check information with anyone else (inc. us or Thailand).
 
ZooChleby said:
Hi!

we are very glad that most of you are supporting us and also do not believe, we would import illegally grey-shanked langurs. We are going to import red-shanked of course, but there was probably a wrong translation made by czech media servis.

Douc Langur Foundation and International Primat Protection Leagus (and perhaps others) who are spreading messages like "stop this murder" did not check information with anyone else (inc. us or Thailand).
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting here. How do you respond to the criticism that many western zoos have previously tried and failed with red-shanked doucs? Is this not a species better suited to zoos such as Dusit and Singapore?
 
Zoo Chleby just an hour ago posted an update on their Facebook page (in English and Czech):
We are going to write this message primary in english, because Douc Langur Foundation and International Primate Protection League (and perhaps others) are spreading wrong information and we got many threats in english.

They are saying: "Illegal wildlife trade in action / Murder in the Zoo" and "[...] you are planning to acquire several grey shanked douc langurs from Bangkok. [...] These animals are part of a huge illegal wildlife trade organization."

They did not contact us or Thailand for any information!

1) We are going to import three red-shanked douc. (not grey!)
2) They were born in captivity in Thailand.
3) The whole trade is absolutely legal.
4) The main veterinaries came from Thailand to check our facilities. They were very satisfied, We visited them in Thailand as well, so we could learn more about the right nutrition etc. We also send to Thailand many types of czech leaves for testing.
5) It is a risky project, but we believe we are capable of taking a good care of langurs in Europe. There will be more zoos cooperating on this project and we all are going to do our best.

Zoo Chleby bred many animals like the first zoo in Europe and also worldwide.
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@Chlidonias or Zoo Chleby: What does the phrase "Zoo Chleby bred many animals like the first zoo in Europe and also worldwide" mean? Does it mean "for the first time"? And if so: What species?
 
zoomaniac said:
@Chlidonias or Zoo Chleby: What does the phrase "Zoo Chleby bred many animals like the first zoo in Europe and also worldwide" mean? Does it mean "for the first time"? And if so: What species?
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that is how I interpreted it, yes. I had a look on their website - About the ZOO - history | ZOO Chleby - and it says this:

Already in the first years of its existence the zoo achieved remarkable successes in breeding - for example repeated breeding of Rhinoceros Hornbill, first to breed Temminck’s Tragopan in the country, and first to breed See-see Partridge and Caucasian Grouse on the world.
Click to expand...
 
It would be unprofessional to claim that the species is endangered due illegal trade -- how that could be since afaik there are none in Europe and only one in the US? In addition of Langurs being hurt by deforestation and local hunting, in this case by far the most important factor is legacy of the Vietnam war. It is easy, but myopic to blame zoos like this, while most to blame is the US. This still applies today, as the US foreign policy has devastating impact on wildlife in the middle east -- but most people will pick easy target and attack a small eastern european zoo.

Also note that according to IUCN red-shanked douc is endangered, not critically endangered. Grey-shanked is classified as critically endangered, since it lives only in Vietnam and thus has been more affected by the war. Red-shanked in addition to Vietnam also lives in Cambodia, where the main problem is deforestation.

It can be expected that large zoos will not support this and claim that small zoo cannot take care of such a fragile species, while already failing in case of San Diego and Philly. Obviously the argument has some merit, but I'm afraid that mostly it will originate from envy, as large zoos often feel entitled to some kind of monopoly on rare species.

The positive upside of increasing awareness of the species can be hardly outweighed by any downside that, as of now, can only be speculative.
 
Hi,

Thank you for that question. Of course this is a risky project, but we believe we can push forward the boundaries of knowledge. As we know, we are the first one, who is making chemical tests of the leaves of our trees in Thailand, so we will know, what and how to use.
We also have a big vietnamese community in the Czech Republic and we already discussed with them import of leaves from Vietnam (they are importing some, which were recommended to us by Thais).
We are also learning from mistakes made by others and we cooperate with many experts from other zoos. It is possible we will make some as well, but we believe (Thais believe it too) we can succeed.

Many directors of other zoos are gratulating us, but they are also asking, how our director sleeps – well, it is getting little bit worse, but it is not a good reason for quitting, is it?
 
@Zoo Chleby: Although I'm a bit skeptical, I cross my fingers for your try/experiment/effort (chose the term you prefere). I still wonder if there were any inquiries from your side for cooperation with other European and/or North American Zoos for that? In my opinion, the chance for sustainable keeping and breeding would be higher then because of a greater number of imports (= more individuals to start with), a lower risk that diseases eliminate the entire imports in one hit and shorter distances to exchange the monkeys for breeding.
According to some people in the zoo business, Douc langurs (and Proboscis monkeys) could have been established with a better coordination between the zoos who have kept them. However, find the appropriate (surogate) food is/was maybe the bigger problem.
 
Thanks, it is all of those - try, experiment and an effort,... We of course got all information we could, so we can learn from mistakes that has been made in past. The biggest problem is the right nutrition (leaves), there should not be any problem with diseases etc.
 
Thanks for the reply. Like zoomaniac, I’m sceptical about the utility of this import and its potential for success, but wish you the very best of luck. They're beautiful animals.
 
I have lost a lot of respect for the Douc Langur Foundation over this issue, with their wild talk of 'murder' and such.
We are talking about a perfectly legal transfer of 3 captive-bred primates from a zoo in Thailand to a zoo in the Czech Republic.
Will Chleby Zoo succeed with this species? We don't yet know, but the zoo is clearly making serious efforts to get the husbandry right. I wish them well and, if my health allows it, I hope to visit Chleby when the doucs have arrived and see them for myself.
(When Leipzig Zoo first brought in Chinese Pangolins, I recall there were some 'enthusiasts' who predicted the animals would be dead within weeks. Let's not be too quick to foretell failure at Chleby.)
 
Thank you MikeG for your support. You are more than welcome, please, let us know, if you will be able to come!
(We will definitely post here an invitation when the arrival will be planned)
 
ZooChleby said:
Thanks, it is all of those - try, experiment and an effort,... We of course got all information we could, so we can learn from mistakes that has been made in past. The biggest problem is the right nutrition (leaves), there should not be any problem with diseases etc.
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Thank you very much for your reply. But unfortunately my question is still unanswered. Where there any efforts for a cooperation with other European and/or North American zoos to import this species and for further breeding coordination?
 
MikeG said:
(When Leipzig Zoo first brought in Chinese Pangolins, I recall there were some 'enthusiasts' who predicted the animals would be dead within weeks. Let's not be too quick to foretell failure at Chleby.)
Click to expand...

I have a feeling one of them has been commenting in this thread!
 
MikeG said:
I have lost a lot of respect for the Douc Langur Foundation over this issue, with their wild talk of 'murder' and such.
We are talking about a perfectly legal transfer of 3 captive-bred primates from a zoo in Thailand to a zoo in the Czech Republic.
Will Chleby Zoo succeed with this species? We don't yet know, but the zoo is clearly making serious efforts to get the husbandry right. I wish them well and, if my health allows it, I hope to visit Chleby when the doucs have arrived and see them for myself.
(When Leipzig Zoo first brought in Chinese Pangolins, I recall there were some 'enthusiasts' who predicted the animals would be dead within weeks. Let's not be too quick to foretell failure at Chleby.)
Click to expand...

Hi Mike. My intention was not to foretell failure and I apologize if that’s how my post came across. However, as both you and ZooChleby have said, none of us know what the outcome of this import will be. That’s true in all cases, of course, but the past lack of success with douc langurs in Europe raises serious welfare issues that I don’t think are outweighed by the “It’s worth a try” mentality.

From my perspective, some ‘enthusiasts’ seem more preoccupied with seeing rare species than considering the animals’ best interests or long-term future. I’m sure that’s not actually true, but I also don’t think new imports are a cause for automatic celebration, especially given the state of many taxa already in European collections. On which note, it seems premature to cite Leipzig’s pangolins as a success when they haven’t yet bred, let alone nucleated a self-sustaining population.

We agree, however, in wishing Chleby all the best and I genuinely hope to be proven wrong.
 
Giant Panda said:
On which note, it seems premature to cite Leipzig’s pangolins as a success when they haven’t yet bred, let alone nucleated a self-sustaining population.
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As the current EAZA stance is that an ex-situ population of pangolins is undesirable the Leipzig animals may well be prevented from breeding. Either way I would argue that increasing the European lifespan record from 7 months to 9 years *is* worthy of being called a success!
 
TeaLovingDave said:
As the current EAZA stance is that an ex-situ population of pangolins is undesirable the Leipzig animals may well be prevented from breeding. Either way I would argue that increasing the European lifespan record from 7 months to 9 years *is* worthy of being called a success!
Click to expand...

That’s a fair point. I don’t know much about the situation with pangolins, but Leipzig’s achievement is clearly an important milestone (along with perhaps less visible successes, eg. Taipei and Nandankanan).
 
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