Zoo "Confessions"

[Brayden Delashmutt]

'I would do it too' and 'everyone does it because I do' aren't really great arguments for something being right.

And I’m not saying they are. I am saying that the majority of people criticizing @Nile Hippo Expert shouldn’t be judging him for something they probably have done. I’ve seen plenty of pictures from KON on these forums that obviously use flash-do we all go after them too?

I haven’t intentionally done it, but I’ve accidentally done it a few times.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Also, y’all are telling me you’ve seriously never, EVER used flash photography in an exhibit that it wasn’t really condoned in? I’m sorry but I don’t believe that. Not justifying what @Nile Hippo Expert did but you guys are being way too harsh on him for something the majority of animal photographers have done

I agree, many of the posts are overly harsh, we all do stupid things sometimes. That said, no I have never used flash accidentally or otherwise broken a rule to get a picture of an animal.....now the Jade Buddha in Bangkok, that's a different matter

 

[Brayden Delashmutt]

I agree, many of the posts are overly harsh, we all do stupid things sometimes. That said, no I have never used flash accidentally or otherwise broken a rule to get a picture of an animal.....now the Jade Buddha in Bangkok, that's a different matter

Yeah. Not condoning it, but y’all are being needlessly harsh when plenty of people do it. Not sure why you’d admit to it tho

 

[Strathmorezoo]

After reading all these posts, I have noticed that one question hasn't been asked and it is this.
What happens when you have, say twenty or more people using flash photography, day after day. I have no idea what the answer is.

 

[TinoPup]

I find some of these comments incredibly judgy. Does everybody here see my profile picture? I flashed that giant flying squirrel right in front of me. It didn't care at all, neither did the owner. In fact, in all my years of visiting zoos and aquariums, I have almost always had a zookeeper or private holder given me permission to use a flashlight. The only problems I ever had were zoo fans who started screaming at me. I'm not saying that we should all flash a nocturnal animal, but I don't see why all of you and many others react so strongly to such a minor event. Great photographers worldwide, like Joel Sartore of National Geographic and Matthijs Kuijpers from Reptiles4all always use flashlights, and so do many field researchers & curators I know. I have not once heard of an animal having damage from this. Actually, I don't think it was ever proven that it harms any animal at all. Sure, it could result in temporary blindness, so says the internet, but I have never seen any proof of that. There is this strong, likeminded way that people have, in which they believe flashlights are horrible and hurt the animals. It is not. The highly professional deep sea research institutions of Okinawa Churaumi Aquarium & Aquamarine Fukushima are even so far that they allow flash in their aquariums. I'm not sure any animals are so used to the dark as deep-sea fish, I think that speaks for itself when it is allowed even there. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't judge so harshly because we have been told how terrible something is of which little long-term effects have ever been described. This is a confession page where someone is honest about his actions. Look how you are all reacting to him, about shining light on a tank that is being lit at night anyway. Not to mention this ironic fact: platypus have their eyes closed while diving.

I know this comment will probably result in a lot of backlash, and feel free to judge my actions if that makes you feel better. But do not act like someone is a bad person because they are so excited to photograph an animal that they use all the resources they have. The animal was not harmed, no captive animal was ever harmed by light. That way of thinking is purely based on speculation, rather than the animal's physiology.

Your desire to get better photos vs care for the animals is already well established. People like Sartore and researchers do it in controlled settings, where the animal is prepared for it, the light isn't directly in their eyes (because it would wouldn't be good for the photo), etc. There is a HUGE difference between turning the lights on for part of the day and having a flashlight suddenly flicked on you when it's dark - look at how much humans squint and turn away when the latter happens. It's also not just about the literal light, there's the shock factor, too. A big startle can kill an animal.

Yes, someone *is* a bad person for not following rules that are posted and are common sense. You don't get to "use all the resources you have", you get to do what you're allowed to as a guest based on the rules you agreed to when you purchased a ticket, walked on the property and entered the building. People don't get to climb fences, step over boundaries, toss food at animals, bang on windows, etc to get better photos.

Also, y’all are telling me you’ve seriously never, EVER used flash photography in an exhibit that it wasn’t really condoned in? I’m sorry but I don’t believe that. Not justifying what @Nile Hippo Expert did but you guys are being way too harsh on him for something the majority of animal photographers have done

Telling on yourself too, then? No, the vast majority of us have never done this. Because we care about the animals and we care about the establishments that take care of them and want to follow the rules so we don't potentially get removed. In addition to being an actual photographer, I take 500-1000 photos with my phone at all but the smallest places I go to. Not once have I ever left the flash on.

 

[15399]

I was mainly trying to point out that flash photography is not especially harmful and that it's being heavily judged everywhere based on speculation rather than facts.

Clearly, if you don't think there is any harm in flash photography or shining a flashlight at animals, you wouldn't mind if random people entered your home and started shining flashlights into your eyes and blinking them on and off. Oh wait, no? You wouldn't be okay with that? Interesting, because that is what you are suggesting is acceptable behavior around zoo animals.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

And I’m not saying they are. I am saying that the majority of people criticizing @Nile Hippo Expert shouldn’t be judging him for something they probably have done. I’ve seen plenty of pictures from KON on these forums that obviously use flash-do we all go after them too?

I haven’t intentionally done it, but I’ve accidentally done it a few times.

Quite apart from the various points raised by individuals such as @TinoPup and @Neil chace (but not limited to them) the other point that must be raised is this:

There is an additional level of disregard for animal welfare and active premeditation inherent in bringing a flashlight to the zoo for the specific purpose of using it in a nocturnal house or exhibit. There are legitimate reasons for people to bring cameras with flash functionality into such an exhibit, given the fact many cameras have this functionality as a built-in feature - most people do not use this functionality in these circumstances, but it is still there. Conversely, the only reason that one would bring a "bright flashlight" (as @Nile Hippo Expert described it) to the zoo is if they had the conscious and pre-meditated plan to use it before even visiting.

As such, I sincerely doubt that "the majority of people criticising Nile Hippo Expert" are judging him for something they have done themselves - not only because I do not believe the majority of people have used flash photography within a nocturnal exhibit, but also because that isn't even what he admitted to doing.

 

[Brayden Delashmutt]

Quite apart from the various points raised by individuals such as @TinoPup and @Neil chace (but not limited to them) the other point that must be raised is this:

There is an additional level of disregard for animal welfare and active premeditation inherent in bringing a flashlight to the zoo for the specific purpose of using it in a nocturnal house or exhibit. There are legitimate reasons for people to bring cameras with flash functionality into such an exhibit, given the fact many cameras have this functionality as a built-in feature - most people do not use this functionality in these circumstances, but it is still there. Conversely, the only reason that one would bring a "bright flashlight" (as @Nile Hippo Expert described it) to the zoo is if they had the conscious and pre-meditated plan to use it before even visiting.

As such, I sincerely doubt that "the majority of people criticising Nile Hippo Expert" are judging him for something they have done themselves - not only because I do not believe the majority of people have used flash photography within a nocturnal exhibit, but also because that isn't even what he admitted to doing.

That's fair. I thought he was using the flashlight to aid in his photography, my bad.

 

[Brayden Delashmutt]

Your desire to get better photos vs care for the animals is already well established. People like Sartore and researchers do it in controlled settings, where the animal is prepared for it, the light isn't directly in their eyes (because it would wouldn't be good for the photo), etc. There is a HUGE difference between turning the lights on for part of the day and having a flashlight suddenly flicked on you when it's dark - look at how much humans squint and turn away when the latter happens. It's also not just about the literal light, there's the shock factor, too. A big startle can kill an animal.

Yes, someone *is* a bad person for not following rules that are posted and are common sense. You don't get to "use all the resources you have", you get to do what you're allowed to as a guest based on the rules you agreed to when you purchased a ticket, walked on the property and entered the building. People don't get to climb fences, step over boundaries, toss food at animals, bang on windows, etc to get better photos.



Telling on yourself too, then? No, the vast majority of us have never done this. Because we care about the animals and we care about the establishments that take care of them and want to follow the rules so we don't potentially get removed. In addition to being an actual photographer, I take 500-1000 photos with my phone at all but the smallest places I go to. Not once have I ever left the flash on.

I have accidentally used flash in some exhibits, yes. Not intentionally. However, just check through the zoochat gallery-there are TONS of photos with flash. Don't take my word for it, go look.

 

[TinoPup]

I have accidentally used flash in some exhibits, yes. Not intentionally. However, just check through the zoochat gallery-there are TONS of photos with flash. Don't take my word for it, go look.

I've been looking off and on in the Omaha gallery since that post and haven't found any yet. There are probably some, of course, but there are certainly not tons. Just make sure the flash is turned off before you get there? Like getting out of the car, I make sure I have my keys, my wallet, my phone, lock the car; just add turn off flash to that. I almost never use it to begin with, and when I do it's a quick on and then off immediately after I take the photo of whatever I needed it for.

 

[Great Argus]

Not condoning it, but y’all are being needlessly harsh when plenty of people do it.

Lots of people doing it doesn't make it right you know. I can think of several times where I've seen "No flash photography" signs in darker exhibits on several occasions. With permission and appropriate setup flash can be used, but that doesn't mean every animal is fine with it. I've had animals I was handling flip out when a guest suddenly used flash (usually by accident) even in outdoor settings during the day.

That aside, Nile Hippo Expert explicitly stated he used a strong flashlight - not a camera flash. That's a whole nother situation entirely, especially given that from the visitor side of things, there should be no need whatsoever to use (let alone bring) a flashlight. Especially to be shining into nocturnal exhibits.

That's fair. I thought he was using the flashlight to aid in his photography, my bad.

And this is still no excuse - if I ever caught a guest deliberately shining a strong flashlight at the animals (which I have never seen anywhere), it could easily be grounds for removal. It's animal harassment, plain and simple.

 

[TinoPup]

An example of the night setting on my samsung galaxy, which is several generations old at this point. They're both of the aye-aye exhibit at Philadelphia, which is the darkest nocturnal exhibit I've ever seen.

 

[lintworm]

I find some of these comments incredibly judgy. Does everybody here see my profile picture? I flashed that giant flying squirrel right in front of me. It didn't care at all, neither did the owner. In fact, in all my years of visiting zoos and aquariums, I have almost always had a zookeeper or private holder given me permission to use a flashlight. The only problems I ever had were zoo fans who started screaming at me. I'm not saying that we should all flash a nocturnal animal, but I don't see why all of you and many others react so strongly to such a minor event. Great photographers worldwide, like Joel Sartore of National Geographic and Matthijs Kuijpers from Reptiles4all always use flashlights, and so do many field researchers & curators I know. I have not once heard of an animal having damage from this. Actually, I don't think it was ever proven that it harms any animal at all. Sure, it could result in temporary blindness, so says the internet, but I have never seen any proof of that. There is this strong, likeminded way that people have, in which they believe flashlights are horrible and hurt the animals. It is not. The highly professional deep sea research institutions of Okinawa Churaumi Aquarium & Aquamarine Fukushima are even so far that they allow flash in their aquariums. I'm not sure any animals are so used to the dark as deep-sea fish, I think that speaks for itself when it is allowed even there. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't judge so harshly because we have been told how terrible something is of which little long-term effects have ever been described. This is a confession page where someone is honest about his actions. Look how you are all reacting to him, about shining light on a tank that is being lit at night anyway. Not to mention this ironic fact: platypus have their eyes closed while diving.

I know this comment will probably result in a lot of backlash, and feel free to judge my actions if that makes you feel better. But do not act like someone is a bad person because they are so excited to photograph an animal that they use all the resources they have. The animal was not harmed, no captive animal was ever harmed by light. That way of thinking is purely based on speculation, rather than the animal's physiology.

A lack of evidence does not mean that it does no harm, and an animal not giving a visual reaction also doesn't prove anything. The problem seems to be that hardly anyone has done any studies and the studies that did not find an effect are not comparable to captivity (e.g. using unrealistically low exposure to flash).

From a biological point of view there are plenty of reasons why there is a potential problem. That doesn't automatically mean that it is a problem, but it should be reason for caution. If zoos (and the vast majority do) explicitly forbid the use of flash photography the only thing one then should do is adhere to the rule. Even if you think that you know better you are a guest, and if not being told explicitly otherwise, there is no reason to use flash for your own (vanity) projects/benefit. Zoochatters love to complain about other guest being not respectful, but I have seen enough flash photography in the Zoochat gallery that gives many members no moral high ground to judge kids breaking the rules.

 

[Osedax]

I have seen several species of possums and gliders in Sydney Zoo's nocturnal house clearly distressed after a group of people went past using flash photography and phone torches. The only time I ever used flash in a nocturnal house was several years ago by accident, and I was able to realise a split second before and cover it with my hand. Now I always make sure I have the flash on my camera turned off before going to a zoo, and again before entering a nocturnal house.

 

[aardvark250]

I have accidentally used flash in some exhibits, yes. Not intentionally. However, just check through the zoochat gallery-there are TONS of photos with flash. Don't take my word for it, go look.

If you can't get good photos because its too dark, just.... don't? It's not that hard. You don't need to take photos of absolutely everything. Just because quite a few photos posted here are with flashlight doesn't mean its the right thing to do.

 

[SwampDonkey]

An example of the night setting on my samsung galaxy, which is several generations old at this point. They're both of the aye-aye exhibit at Philadelphia, which is the darkest nocturnal exhibit I've ever seen.

Just for comparison, here is one I took at Columbus of the wombat in the Australia night house.

That is was not a particularly dark house, but the Google Pixel 6a does well in low light on the night setting. This does NOT have a flash on.

 

[Brayden Delashmutt]

My Samsung’s camera actually does better in low light than my actual camera, lol

 

[evilmonkey239]

The only proof I have of seeing SDZSF’s platypi is about two seconds of footage of its silhouette I took with my iPhone. It’s not much, but it is something.

 

[Sicarius]

Your desire to get better photos vs care for the animals is already well established.

I do not appreciate that you make it personal. You don't know me or my intentions, nor my experience with exotic animals and my contacts in zoos and the private trade. I don't know you either, but I have the feeling that you are not working with these kinds of animals. That makes you not in a position to judge me. I would appreciate it if you could keep this discussion professional. Thank you.

I shall refrain from commenting on this topic. In my opinion, the people here have too little insight into the world behind the visitor area, or the exotic pet trade. But that is just my opinion. It's honestly interesting to see how the majority of you are looking towards this topic. It's good to see that the animal's well-being is made a priority.

I shall consider uploading fewer photos to Zoochat. Apparently, some think that I do it for the wrong reasons.

 

[TinoPup]

I do not appreciate that you make it personal. You don't know me or my intentions, nor my experience with exotic animals and my contacts in zoos and the private trade. I don't know you either, but I have the feeling that you are not working with these kinds of animals. That makes you not in a position to judge me. I would appreciate it if you could keep this discussion professional. Thank you.

I shall refrain from commenting on this topic. In my opinion, the people here have too little insight into the world behind the visitor area, or the exotic pet trade. But that is just my opinion. It's honestly interesting to see how the majority of you are looking towards this topic. It's good to see that the animal's well-being is made a priority.

I shall consider uploading fewer photos to Zoochat. Apparently, some think that I do it for the wrong reasons.

You made it personal by bringing up all of your personal experience. Zoochat isn't a bubble, people know each other outside of this forum. Claiming you want to keep it "professional" and then making claims about who I am doesn't work, either. Your posts and photos on this forum have made it plenty clear in the past that certain things don't matter to you, and you further demonstrated that with your post.

There are numerous keepers and other industry professionals in here. The ones who have commented here, and who I've spoken to off-forum that work at reputable places (vs exotic pet owners/dealers), all agree that flashlights shouldn't be used. Your experience isn't the exception on zoochat. We don't even use flash at indoor dog shows, ffs, because it can startle the dog and screw up their movement/posture in the ring (and they're already in a well-lit environment, not a nocturnal setting). It's only used by the official win photographer at their portrait set-up, with the dog looking away.