What species are they?
ZooChat Challenge Europe 2017
- Thread starter Vision
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If I recall correctly from when I discussed the matter with zoogiraffe some years ago, although labelled as Ateles geoffroyi - having been identified as such when they arrived from Cotswold Wildlife Park in 2007 - they are actually slightly-muddy A. belzebuth, comprising members of the latter species which have one or two geoffroyi in their genepool sometime back in the 1960s or 70s.
As such I'd argue they are pure enough to count, given the fact that we have been counting a lot of other species where the genepool has potentially been muddied by hybridisation decades ago (Eulemur taxa being the most obvious) but it should probably be left to @Vision to give a definitive yes/no.......
They're 3 generations of the same family....grandmother, her son and then his daughter. The male is listed on ZIMS as Ateles geoffroyi, but the others as only Ateles. Following a little more digging, we reached the conclusion that it was recorded wrongly, with the eldest female (41!) being Ateles geoffroyi and the two younger ones being hybrids that retired to Reaseheath as a non-breeding group.
zoogiraffe
Well-Known Member
Funny that they look nothing like the UK only Geoffroys at Amazona Zoo,I stand by what I have then described as,seeing as the person that told me was the keeper that looked after them for over 20 years at CWP
Looking at some photos of them in the gallery, they don't look much like belzebuth at all.
They indeed do not look like Geoffroys, but also not like A. belzebuth so why not accept they are hybrids...
zoogiraffe
Well-Known Member
If that is what the people in charge of this challenge, so wish then happy enough to do that.
Well one would have thought after 20 years of working with them, their records would have been less of a mess!
As their current keeper, and one of the people that has had to delve into their lineage in order to make our records more comprehensible, I'm happy stating that the younger 2 are hybrids and that there is a chance that Menga (the mother/grandmother of the other 2) is purebred Geoffroys. Coincidentally, she is the one that looks least like a white bellied. 
zoogiraffe
Well-Known Member
Well one would have thought after 20 years of working with them, their records would have been less of a mess!
Tell you what seeing as you cannot seem to let this go I will discount them and have to find something else to replace it.But I suggest if you want to clear up what they are you get them dna tested.But then working at Reaseheath you should know that zims isn't the be all and end all it can be wrong,I think all I need to say is Cookes Tree Boa or should I say Amazon Tree Boa!!!
Wow. Does it really put your nose out of joint THAT MUCH if someone questions you? You're so arrogant! Bless you.
(and I don't work with reptiles)
Changing the subject just slightly!
I'm sure someone claimed to have seen Geoffroy's Spider Monkey at Monkeyworld.
They are listed on ZTL as holding brown spider monkey along with 3 other UK holders.
Only listed UK holders of Geoffroy's are Cromer? Could someone please clarify what species are held at Monkeyworld?! I thought they were brown spider monkey when saw them2 years ago.
Thanks
I'm sure someone claimed to have seen Geoffroy's Spider Monkey at Monkeyworld.
They are listed on ZTL as holding brown spider monkey along with 3 other UK holders.
Only listed UK holders of Geoffroy's are Cromer? Could someone please clarify what species are held at Monkeyworld?! I thought they were brown spider monkey when saw them2 years ago.
Thanks
For context, there is a known issue whereby all but one of the UK listings on ZIMS for Cooks Tree Boa actually pertain to Amazon Tree Boa, due to the two species being very similar in appearance and the collections in question not having updated the listings since the error was discovered.
As far as I know, they are Ateles hybridus - which *was* once deemed a subspecies of Geoffroy's to be fair.
Fair enough response, but are they countable as geoffroy's? When ZTL lists as brown spider monkey which they very much look like?!!
As I said, given the fact they *are* Brown Spider Monkey (Ateles hybridus) I would say that is what they should be counted as 
my observation that hybridus used to be lumped into geoffroyi (along with belzebuth and marginatus, I think) was merely a reflection that this will be the reason for the incorrect labelling.
my observation that hybridus used to be lumped into geoffroyi (along with belzebuth and marginatus, I think) was merely a reflection that this will be the reason for the incorrect labelling.
This is getting interesting?
If everyone can only count one of these, there is a problem I think!!As I said, given the fact they *are* Brown Spider Monkey (Ateles hybridus) I would say that is what they should be counted as
Odd, last I checked Hickory was a Geoffroy's and the other two were Geoffroy's/brown hybrids. Never mind though, if that's not the case then I'll remove them from my list.
So you were the guilty party? If what you say is correct, that's fine, I'll record them the same! Just doesn't show on ZTL!?
The three spider monkeys at Monkey World were originally bred at Cotswold, which Zootierliste says had both hybridus and geoffroyi so they could be either, or hybrids. I could only find one good photo of one animal and that one looked like hybridus rather than geoffroyi.
I think a certain amount of the Zoochat/Zootierliste "identifications" for some species in random collections is more guesswork than anything.
I think a certain amount of the Zoochat/Zootierliste "identifications" for some species in random collections is more guesswork than anything.
Hickory was born to Menga, the female at Reaseheath who is pure Geoffroy's, so even if he does turn out to be hybrid I wasn't entirely wrong.
I didn't say that
I said that they *used* to be lumped together, not that they still were. The split is a long-standing and established one. As such any of those species is a "countable" one if they are seen in a collection.... although given the fact the only marginatus in Europe are extremely old and privately-held, I doubt anyone will be getting that one!- Status