ZooChat Cup finals: Bronx vs Plzen

Bronx vs Plzen: Africa

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CGSwans

Well-Known Member
15+ year member
Plzen’s been the little engine that could for so much of this Cup. A narrow loss to Zurich cost it a chance to win, but it can still very much shape the result. Africa.
 
Bronx has a decent African area, but so does Plzen - interesting one. 2-1 to Plzen for starters methinks.

EDIT: Just remembered CGF - vote switched :)
However, doesn't look like it will be an easy win for any of the cup contenders...
 
2-1 Bronx for me

  • Congo Gorilla Forest (Gorilla, Okapi, RR Hog, Mandrill, Wolfs Guenon, colobus monkey,....)
  • African Plains (nyala, slender-horned gazelle, african lion, thomson’s gazelle, marabou stork, grey-crowned crane, dwarf mongoose, spotted hyena, aardvark, giraffe, african wild dog, grevy’s zebra)
  • Baboon Reserve (Gelada, Rock Hyrax, Nubian Ibex)
  • Madagascar (6 species of lemur, nile crocodile, raidated tortoise, spider tortoise, fossa,....)
  • World of Birds (African walkthrough aviary, bee-eater aviary, African grasslands aviary)
  • Other species scattered around zoo such as White Rhino, plenty of species in Mouse House, & World of Reptiles
 
Hmm, this should be an interesting one. As I've never visited Plzen I can't really say much about what they have although I'd assume they have a very large collection of African animals:D.

Bronx on the other hand has two marquee areas focused solely on African animals. African Grasslands is not as flashy as other zoos savanna areas (probably due to being built in the 1940's), but it holds up well and provides lots of space for Lions, Giraffes, African Wild Dogs and quite bit more. Right beside African Grasslands is the Ethiopian Highlands exhibit; this is a terrific mixed species exhibit for Gelada Baboons, Rock Hyrax and Nubian Ibex.

Congo Gorilla Forest is obviously the headliner and it really is a tremendous exhibit. The exhibit starts by taking you into a lush forest, passing Okapis then moving inside where there is a room for Fish, Reptiles and Amphibians along with great viewing of an excellent Red River Hog/Mandrill/Colobus Monkey mixed exhibit. The path then lead you to the star attraction, a really excellent Gorilla exhibit. The exhibit is quite large and obviously naturalistic, the group is very large (I think around 20 individuals?) and there are some excellent viewing windows as well.

Add in species scattered around World of Birds, World of Reptile, Mouse House and even the ZooCenter (a really pleasant White Rhino exhibit) and I'm going 2-1 Bronx.
 
Having run through my notes, Bronx can contribute the following to this match as far as my knowledge goes:
- 5 invertebrate species
- 20 fishes
- 3 amphibians
- 31 reptiles
- 51 birds
- 42 mammals

So that gives Bronx about 152 total African species. Of course I didn't include their various Madagascar or nearby island species which would otherwise give them a much higher total.

Indoor giraffe stables aside, the zoo has three excellent Africa-focused exhibits in African Plains, Congo Gorilla Forest, and Baboon Reserve. All three exhibits feature very large and naturalistic habitats which has given the zoo an excellent breeding record with a lot of their species, particularly with their hoofstock and primates. Elsewhere in the zoo, there are a variety of Africa-themed enclosures in World of Birds, the Aquatic Bird House, World of Reptiles, the Mouse House, the Children's Zoo, Zoo Center, and the Pheasantry. The Butterfly Garden also has various free-flying African passerines and pigeons.

Plzen's African area, while nice, compares nowhere near Bronx in terms of size or species. A pretty easy 2-1 here for me.

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
Having run through my notes, Bronx can contribute the following to this match as far as my knowledge goes:
- 5 invertebrate species
- 20 fishes
- 3 amphibians
- 31 reptiles
- 51 birds
- 42 mammals

So that gives Bronx about 152 total African species. Of course I didn't include their various Madagascar or nearby island species which would otherwise give them a much higher total.

Indoor giraffe stables aside, the zoo has three excellent Africa-focused exhibits in African Plains, Congo Gorilla Forest, and Baboon Reserve. All three exhibits feature very large and naturalistic habitats which has given the zoo an excellent breeding record with a lot of their species, particularly with their hoofstock and primates. Elsewhere in the zoo, there are a variety of Africa-themed enclosures in World of Birds, the Aquatic Bird House, World of Reptiles, the Mouse House, the Children's Zoo, Zoo Center, and the Pheasantry. The Butterfly Garden also has various free-flying African passerines and pigeons.

Plzen's African area, while nice, compares nowhere near Bronx in terms of size or species. A pretty easy 2-1 here for me.

~Thylo
Click to expand...

Yes - although I don't think species count is a particularly convincing argument against Plzen, who I am certain if I counted would scornfully throw those figures aside and come back with a number twice or three times larger. I think Bronx's main argument is its exhibits, particularly the Congo Gorilla forest. However, I was impressed by Plzen's representation of African birds and how much of a focus they put on it. I also have a small soft spot for African rodents, so I do like Plzen's focus on them as well. Not as clear cut therefore for me as for many others I guess.
 
amur leopard said:
Yes - although I don't think species count is a particularly convincing argument against Plzen, who I am certain if I counted would scornfully throw those figures aside and come back with a number twice or three times larger. I think Bronx's main argument is its exhibits, particularly the Congo Gorilla forest. However, I was impressed by Plzen's representation of African birds and how much of a focus they put on it. I also have a small soft spot for African rodents, so I do like Plzen's focus on them as well. Not as clear cut therefore for me as for many others I guess.
Click to expand...

Let's test that!

- 7 invertebrates
- 0 fishes
- 1 amphibians
- 12 reptiles
- 64 birds
- 40 mammals

So 124 species for Plzen. Of course, my knowledge of the bts collection of Plzen's herps is rather limited compared to my knowledge of Bronx so it's entirely possible that the true number is a little higher, but I highly doubt Plzen will "scornfully throw [Bronx's] figures aside and come back with a number twice or three times larger". Plzen's bird collection, while still choice for African species, is focused more on Eurasian species than African (as is Bronx's really) and their herp collection shines more on island species than anything else.

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
- 7 invertebrates
- 0 fishes
- 1 amphibians
- 12 reptiles
- 64 birds
- 40 mammals
Click to expand...

Firstly, where did you get those figures? ZTL? Because I just did a quick look through the mammals and got 56 taxa, having checked each species' range individually. Many of the rodents have ranges that extend into Northern Africa, like the Etruscan shrew, Bushy-tailed jird etc.

I am also ready to bet that the bird number is off as well - Plzen has an immense bird collection with a massive African representation as well. I will in fact do my own lists in a sec.
 
Posted plenty of times in the past, but here are Bronx's highlights:
Bronx zoo- Giraffe Exhibit - ZooChat
Bronx Zoo- Congo Gorilla Forest- Part of Okapi Exhibit - ZooChat
Bronx Zoo- African Plains- N'yala Exhibit (Springtime) - ZooChat
Slender-Horned Gazelle Enclosure - ZooChat
Thomson's Gazelles - ZooChat
African Plains- Grevy's Zebra Exhibit - ZooChat
Bronx Zoo - Dwarf mongoose exhibit - ZooChat
African Plains- Spotted Hyena Exhibit - ZooChat
Bronx Zoo 2010 - Another part of African Wild Dog exhibit - ZooChat
Bronx Zoo- African Lion Exhibit - ZooChat
Bronx Zoo- 1st Gorilla Exhibit - ZooChat (there's only one on-show gorilla enclosure)
Bronx Zoo- Gorilla Exhibit - ZooChat
Bronx Zoo- Mandrill/ Red River Hog Exhibit - ZooChat
Bronx Zoo 2010 - Part of Mandrill exhibit in Congo Gorilla Forest - ZooChat
Gelada/Ibex/Hyrax Exhibit - ZooChat
African rainforest - World of Birds 031215 - ZooChat
World of Birds- African Rainforest - ZooChat
Bee-eaters exhibit 031215 - ZooChat
Bronx Zoo- World of Birds- Part 1 of Mixed Desert Exhibit - ZooChat

~Thylo
 
amur leopard said:
Firstly, where did you get those figures? ZTL? Because I just did a quick look through the mammals and got 56 taxa, having checked each species' range individually. Many of the rodents have ranges that extend into Northern Africa, like the Etruscan shrew, Bushy-tailed jird etc.

I am also ready to bet that the bird number is off as well - Plzen has an immense bird collection with a massive African representation as well. I will in fact do my own lists in a sec.
Click to expand...

I based those figures off of my own visit (which includes a bts into the rodent section) plus my knowledge of the collection beyond the species I physically saw. It's the same way I worked out the Bronx figures. As we've all noted many times, ZTL is extremely outdated so using it will give you exaggerated figures. I'll admit I missed the shrew and Percival's Spiny Mouse, but I did count all the obscure rodents with small ranges in North Africa and ZTL is definitely out of date for their rodents so using it isn't very accurate. Plzen does have an immense bird collection, but as I said it's mainly focused on Eurasian species. In fact, I only remember there being two or three Africa themed aviaries across the entire zoo, although other aviaries had African species thrown into them as well.

Regardless, as you said species numbers aren't going to be super relevant here so it is the exhibits that are going to have to shine.

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
I based those figures off of my own visit (which includes a bts into the rodent section) plus my knowledge of the collection beyond the species I physically saw. It's the same way I worked out the Bronx figures. As we've all noted many times, ZTL is extremely outdated so using it will give you exaggerated figures. I'll admit I missed the shrew and Percival's Spiny Mouse, but I did count all the obscure rodents with small ranges in North Africa and ZTL is definitely out of date for their rodents so using it isn't very accurate. Plzen does have an immense bird collection, but as I said it's mainly focused on Eurasian species. In fact, I only remember there being two or three Africa themed aviaries across the entire zoo, although other aviaries had African species thrown into them as well.

Regardless, as you said species numbers aren't going to be super relevant here so it is the exhibits that are going to have to shine.

~Thylo
Click to expand...

For the sake of reliability however, I counted 134 species of bird in Plzen, over twice the number of species you counted - surely that is not down to ZTL inaccuracy?
 
2-1 Bronx. Madagascar is good, African Plains is also good, Baboon Reserve is great and Congo Gorilla Forest is amazing.
 
TheGerenuk said:
2-1 Bronx. Madagascar is good, African Plains is also good, Baboon Reserve is great and Congo Gorilla Forest is amazing.
Click to expand...

Madagascar doesn't count in this category as far as I am aware. It was under the Islands category for the continental regions.
 
ThylacineAlive said:
I based those figures off of my own visit (which includes a bts into the rodent section) plus my knowledge of the collection beyond the species I physically saw. It's the same way I worked out the Bronx figures. As we've all noted many times, ZTL is extremely outdated so using it will give you exaggerated figures.
Click to expand...

amur leopard said:
For the sake of reliability however, I counted 134 species of bird in Plzen, over twice the number of species you counted - surely that is not down to ZTL inaccuracy?
Click to expand...

I was curious about this discrepancy, so I did a ZTL count as well. My count yielded a very similar 136 species. Here is the list for reference:

African grey-headed gull
Maccoa duck
Eastern purple heron
Atlas Horned lark*
Eurasian Oystercatcher
White wagtail (Nominate subspecies)
Blue-winged goose
Blue-headed wood-dove (Maiden dove) (Blue-headed dove)*
Blue-naped mousebird (Blue-naped coly)
Common Linnet (Eurasian Linnet) (Nominate subspecies)
Chestnut-bellied sandgrouse (No Subspecific status)
Sudan golden sparrow
Senegal turaco (Buffon`s turaco)
Moussier's redstart (Coroneted redstart)*
Madagascar pond-heron (Malagasy pond-heron)
African three-banded plover
Slender-billed gull*
Spotless starling*
Eurasian siskin
Eurasian teal (Eurasian green-winged teal)
Eurasian Song thrush (Throstle)
Eurasian great cormorant
European Turtle dove
Eurasian quail (European quail)
Common chaffinch
Western black redstart (European black redstart)
European starling (Common starling)
European stone curlew
European kestrel (Eurasian kestrel)
European white stork
Common sandpiper
Common redstart
Grey wagtail
Fulvous whistling-duck (Fulvous tree duck)
Yellow-billed duck (African Yellow-billed duck) (No Subspecific status)
Common rock pigeon (Western rock pigeon)
European serin
African comb duck (Old World comb duck) (Grey-sided comb duck)
Eurasian golden plover (European golden plover)
Grey heron
Ring-necked dove (Cape turtle dove)
Hadada ibis (No Subspecific status)
Collared Kingfisher (White-collared Kingfisher) (Black-masked Kingfisher) (No Subspecific status)
Hamerkop (Hammerhead)
Harlequin quail
House bunting*
Rufous scrub-robin (Rufous-tailed Bush-robin) (Rufous-tailed Scrub-robin)*
Wood lark*
Stock dove (Stock pigeon)
Ruff
Namaqua dove (Long-tailed dove)
Eastern crested guineafowl (Kenya crested guineafowl)
Hawfinch (Grosbeak) (Nominate subspecies)
Kilimanjaro White-eye
Garganey
Red-crested pochard
Egyptian plover
Common cuckoo (Eurasian cuckoo) (European cuckoo)
Western cattle egret (Buff-backed heron)
Greater short-toed lark*
Black-headed gull (Common black-headed gull)
Lanner falcon (No Subspecific status)
Northern shoveler
Maghreb magpie*
Green-backed heron (No Subspecific status)
Marbled teal (Marbled duck)
Grey-headed social-weaver (Nominate subspecies)*
Mistle thrush
European greenfinch*
African openbill (African open-billed stork)
Eurasian Blackcap (Nominate subspecies)
Ferruginous duck (White-eyed pochard) (Ferruginous pochard)
Black-crowned night heron (Nominate subspecies)
Yellow-crowned bishop
Red-backed shrike
Egyptian goose
Yellow-billed stork
African chaffinch*
Upper Guinea bulbul*
Eastern grey-crowned crane (East African crowned crane)
Eurasian wigeon
African sacred ibis (Sacred ibis)
Eurasian golden oriole (European golden oriole)
Oriole warbler (Oriole babbler)*
Purple glossy-starling
Barn swallow
Tufted duck (Tufted pochard)
Common woodpigeon (Wood pigeon)
Greater flamingo
Great white pelican (Eastern white pelican) (Rosy pelican)
Ruddy shelduck
Pink-backed pelican
Collared pratincole
Red-footed falcon
African spoonbill
Red-breasted goose
Red-throated bee-eater*
Common redshank
Red-billed teal (Red-billed duck) (Red-billed pintail)
Black-cheeked lovebird
Pied avocet (Eurasian avocet)
Saker falcon (No Subspecific status)
Common ringed plover
Northern Carmine bee-eater (Blue-throated carmine bee-eater) (Nubian Bee-eater)
Greater spotted eagle*
Pied crow
Emerald starling (Iris glossy-starling)
Blacksmith lapwing (Blacksmith plover)
Gadwall (Gadwall duck)
White-crowned robin-chat
Black crake
Black-necked stilt
Little egret (Nominate subspecies) (Common Little egret)
Senegal Laughing dove*
Glossy ibis
Northern pintail
Pin-tailed sandgrouse (Subspecies caudacutus)*
Golden eagle (no subspecific status)
Black-winged stilt
Common ostrich (No Subspecific status)
South African black duck
Miombo blue-eared starling*
Common pochard (European pochard)
Coal tit (Nominate subspecies)*
Common moorhen (Eurasian moorhen) (Nominate subspecies)
Dusky turtle-dove (Pink-breasted turtle-dove)
Spotted crake
Corncrake
Northern bald ibis (Waldrapp)
Western water rail (Water rail)*
Common waxbill (St. Helena waxbill) (no subspecies-status)
Western eurasian griffon vulture
Egyptian vulture
White-faced whistling-duck (White- faced tree duck)
Trumpeter finch
Common Little bittern (Little bittern)
 
Brum said:
@nczoofan I don't think Madagascar counts here, I think it's in the Islands category.
Click to expand...

NSU42 said:
Madagascar doesn't count in this category as far as I am aware. It was under the Islands category for the continental regions.
Click to expand...

Yes, to confirm this for anyone who doesn't know or remember the categories: the Madagascar exhibit complex as a whole, along with all species not found on the mainland African continent, definitively do not count.
 
Coelacanth18 said:
I was curious about this discrepancy, so I did a ZTL count as well. My count yielded a very similar 136 species. Here is the list for reference:

African grey-headed gull
Maccoa duck
Eastern purple heron
Atlas Horned lark*
Eurasian Oystercatcher
White wagtail (Nominate subspecies)
Blue-winged goose
Blue-headed wood-dove (Maiden dove) (Blue-headed dove)*
Blue-naped mousebird (Blue-naped coly)
Common Linnet (Eurasian Linnet) (Nominate subspecies)
Chestnut-bellied sandgrouse (No Subspecific status)
Sudan golden sparrow
Senegal turaco (Buffon`s turaco)
Moussier's redstart (Coroneted redstart)*
Madagascar pond-heron (Malagasy pond-heron)
African three-banded plover
Slender-billed gull*
Spotless starling*
Eurasian siskin
Eurasian teal (Eurasian green-winged teal)
Eurasian Song thrush (Throstle)
Eurasian great cormorant
European Turtle dove
Eurasian quail (European quail)
Common chaffinch
Western black redstart (European black redstart)
European starling (Common starling)
European stone curlew
European kestrel (Eurasian kestrel)
European white stork
Common sandpiper
Common redstart
Grey wagtail
Fulvous whistling-duck (Fulvous tree duck)
Yellow-billed duck (African Yellow-billed duck) (No Subspecific status)
Common rock pigeon (Western rock pigeon)
European serin
African comb duck (Old World comb duck) (Grey-sided comb duck)
Eurasian golden plover (European golden plover)
Grey heron
Ring-necked dove (Cape turtle dove)
Hadada ibis (No Subspecific status)
Collared Kingfisher (White-collared Kingfisher) (Black-masked Kingfisher) (No Subspecific status)
Hamerkop (Hammerhead)
Harlequin quail
House bunting*
Rufous scrub-robin (Rufous-tailed Bush-robin) (Rufous-tailed Scrub-robin)*
Wood lark*
Stock dove (Stock pigeon)
Ruff
Namaqua dove (Long-tailed dove)
Eastern crested guineafowl (Kenya crested guineafowl)
Hawfinch (Grosbeak) (Nominate subspecies)
Kilimanjaro White-eye
Garganey
Red-crested pochard
Egyptian plover
Common cuckoo (Eurasian cuckoo) (European cuckoo)
Western cattle egret (Buff-backed heron)
Greater short-toed lark*
Black-headed gull (Common black-headed gull)
Lanner falcon (No Subspecific status)
Northern shoveler
Maghreb magpie*
Green-backed heron (No Subspecific status)
Marbled teal (Marbled duck)
Grey-headed social-weaver (Nominate subspecies)*
Mistle thrush
European greenfinch*
African openbill (African open-billed stork)
Eurasian Blackcap (Nominate subspecies)
Ferruginous duck (White-eyed pochard) (Ferruginous pochard)
Black-crowned night heron (Nominate subspecies)
Yellow-crowned bishop
Red-backed shrike
Egyptian goose
Yellow-billed stork
African chaffinch*
Upper Guinea bulbul*
Eastern grey-crowned crane (East African crowned crane)
Eurasian wigeon
African sacred ibis (Sacred ibis)
Eurasian golden oriole (European golden oriole)
Oriole warbler (Oriole babbler)*
Purple glossy-starling
Barn swallow
Tufted duck (Tufted pochard)
Common woodpigeon (Wood pigeon)
Greater flamingo
Great white pelican (Eastern white pelican) (Rosy pelican)
Ruddy shelduck
Pink-backed pelican
Collared pratincole
Red-footed falcon
African spoonbill
Red-breasted goose
Red-throated bee-eater*
Common redshank
Red-billed teal (Red-billed duck) (Red-billed pintail)
Black-cheeked lovebird
Pied avocet (Eurasian avocet)
Saker falcon (No Subspecific status)
Common ringed plover
Northern Carmine bee-eater (Blue-throated carmine bee-eater) (Nubian Bee-eater)
Greater spotted eagle*
Pied crow
Emerald starling (Iris glossy-starling)
Blacksmith lapwing (Blacksmith plover)
Gadwall (Gadwall duck)
White-crowned robin-chat
Black crake
Black-necked stilt
Little egret (Nominate subspecies) (Common Little egret)
Senegal Laughing dove*
Glossy ibis
Northern pintail
Pin-tailed sandgrouse (Subspecies caudacutus)*
Golden eagle (no subspecific status)
Black-winged stilt
Common ostrich (No Subspecific status)
South African black duck
Miombo blue-eared starling*
Common pochard (European pochard)
Coal tit (Nominate subspecies)*
Common moorhen (Eurasian moorhen) (Nominate subspecies)
Dusky turtle-dove (Pink-breasted turtle-dove)
Spotted crake
Corncrake
Northern bald ibis (Waldrapp)
Western water rail (Water rail)*
Common waxbill (St. Helena waxbill) (no subspecies-status)
Western eurasian griffon vulture
Egyptian vulture
White-faced whistling-duck (White- faced tree duck)
Trumpeter finch
Common Little bittern (Little bittern)
Click to expand...

Some of these I do not think are still at the zoo, and for others I simply didn't count them because a. I didn't realize they ranged into continental Africa (Malagasy Pond-Heron, Song Thrush, etc.), or b. I don't think they count from a subspecies perspective. Either way I'm willing to admit my estimate of their African bird holdings was quite a ways off. Including migratory species I missed off before, Bronx's bird total will increase by a few birds as well, though obviously will not close the gap.

~Thylo
 
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