ZooChat Cup finals: Bronx vs Vienna
- Thread starter CGSwans
- Start date
If you are referring to these biomes overall then grassland has far more species and family richness. In the chart about from the Millenium Ecosystem Assessment, deserts do rank high, but if one combined the multiple grasslands categories then they would far surpass deserts. Therefore I have always viewed this category through the lens of weighing grassland, more than desert. To view them as equal parts of this category in my opinion ignores the fact that grasslands hold far more of the world's biodiversity.
Why shouldn't we? What other category would arid Caribbean fit into?
I reckon it fits - so that only strengthens the case for Bronx methinks
Why would it, Schoenbrunn also has a pretty good collection of Caribbean reptiles and has good enclosures for them as well.
Because so far the people arguing for Vienna have counted exhibits of that nature whilst those arguing for Bronx have omitted to mention them - so it's an additional positive aspect to take into account for the latter collection.
Guess I just don't think of the Caribbean as a desert-like ecosystem. If we're counting them, though, the zoo keeps a few species such as Bananaquit, Cuban Amazon, Grand Cayman Blue Iguana, Allison's Anole, and Aruba Island Rattlesnake. They have other Caribbean birds as well, but those includes flamingos and waterfowl which I'm not sure would count here.
The WCS also has conservation programs based in the Caribbean, which includes working with multiple Cyclura iguana species and substantially contributing to the Puerto Rican Crested Toad reintroduction program.
Other more arid habitats we've forgotten to mention are the Guira Cuckoo/Elegant-Crested Tinamou enclosure in World of Birds (photo shows only a portion and makes it look shallower than it is), the African scrub display in World of Reptiles (again, photo makes it appear smaller. The mock rock has crevices in them now so the animals can actually wedge themselves in and out of view as in the wild), and the Australian Brush-Turkey/Australian Magpie aviary along the Pheasantry.
Some other applicable species the zoo keeps which haven't been mentioned so far are Puff Adder, both diamondback rattlesnakes, Santa Catalina Island Rattlesnake, Egyptian Tortoise, Mozambique Girdled Lizard, both bald ibises, Plum-Headed Finch, Star Finch, Long-Tailed Finch, Double-Barred Finch, Lesser Hedgehog Tenrec, Western Spotted Skunk, Grizzly Bear (historically ranged across the Great Plains and Great Basin), Dhole (ranges across the Asian Steppe?), Cougar (two orphans rescued currently bts), California Mouse, Lesser Egyptian Jerboa, Pallid Gerbil, Nile Grass Rat, Bushy-Tailed Jird, Fat-Tailed Gerbil, Eurasian Harvest Mouse, South African Pygmy Mouse, and Harris's Antelope Squirrel. As mentioned before, the zoo also keeps both Aldabra Giant Tortoises and Volcan Dwarin Giant Tortoises.
Other applicable conservation programs include monitoring/assisting in reintroduction programs for Grey Wolves, Black-Footed Ferret, Pronghorn, and many other American desert/grassland species along with the American Bison. They zoo is also coordinating a new breeding program for purebred Plains Bison.
~Thylo
Cuban amazon are forest animals, so would not count, if so Vienna would have 2 Jamaican amazone species to counter it anyway.
I think that is stratching it quite a bit and behind the scenes species don't count.
Non-mentioned species for Vienna include (but not limited to) are European thick-knee + European bee-eater, Barbary sheep (they live in mountaneous deserts if that counts), Banded mongoose, Greater egyptian jerboa, Three-banded armadillo, Ground hornbill, Burrowing parrot, Common emu, Socorro dove, Egyptian vulture, Yellow-collared lovebird, Armadillo lizard, Carter's rock gecko, Cascabel rattlesnake, Spider tortoise, Common shingleback, bearded dragon, Gidgee skink, Frill-necked lizard, Greek tortoise, Hermann's tortoise, Northern black-tailed rattlesnake, Ornate mastigure, Pancake tortoise, Oman spiny-tailed lizard, Red-sided curly-tailed lizard, Ringed wall gecko, Angulate tortoise, Spiny-tailed monitor lizard, Yellow Fan-fingered gecko, Veiled chameleon, African bullfrog, Green toad and other amphibians + ~15 bird species that count in the Desert and Bird house.
So on species numbers Bronx is not going to win it, nor on quality of their aviaries and terraria, nor on their desert representation. It has the edge in larger grassy enclosures for their mammals and it has more relevant rodents. Overall still a Vienna win to me.
Why? They're species native to grassland and desert ecosystems. Grizzly Bears are even still found in some Great Plains states to this day. Also, bts species should obviously count as they're part of the zoo's collection. If they didn't, all of the bts breeding programs which we counted for the entire cup up to this point would be moot. It's only ever been not yet public exhibits which we haven't counted.
~Thylo
Having browsed through the thread and counted up the relevant species I know both zoos keep, Vienna sits at ~100 vs Bronx which edges on 150... If we allowed species species such as Cougar, wallaby, and warthog which Bronx keeps bts (which there isn't any real reason why we shouldn't) then both lists will grow but I doubt Bronx would lose the lead.
I do agree that Vienna wins on desert representation but that's about it for me.
~Thylo
For the same reason that Beauval's Equatorial Dome isn't counted. It is not on-show - your average joe could not see the cougars or the wallabies or the warthogs.
That's an entire exhibit, not just animals. Again, if we stop counting bts animals now we'd have to go back and recount pretty much every single match as bts breeding programs, show animals, and otherwise simply non-exhibited animals (ie Berlin's carnivore house species) have always been counted. Regardless, if we remove bts animals the point of which zoo has the higher species list still rings true as I did not count the Cougars, etc. at Bronx.
~Thylo
There's a key difference - as Thylo has explained the Equatorial Dome is an exhibit, and therefore the quality and design of the Dome cannot be counted as a factor to promote Beauval until the exhibit is open and people have been able to judge it for themselves rather than make assumptions on PR material and plans. Conversely the species held within offshow areas have always been counted as valid when the discussion has turned to the species held within a collection, as their presence and existence is a solid fact.
As noted, BTS breeding programmes and other such factors the public do not see have also been consistently taken into account in previous matches - see, for instance, discussions revolving around the amphibian programmes at Bronx, the wildcat programme at Chester, partula snails at several collections, and so forth.
It looks like we're tied again 
and of all the people to have posted in this thread, @Coelacanth18 has yet to vote.
I believe we might well have a kingmaker situation here!
and of all the people to have posted in this thread, @Coelacanth18 has yet to vote.I believe we might well have a kingmaker situation here!
I feel, that Bts question was a matter of personal interpretation during the entire cup and everyone can decide either to weight this factor or not, especially in so close games.
The main reason for me to choose Schönbrunn over Bronx is the serious consistency and attention to detail, which they approach every single exhibit with. Most of their buildings and enclosures are brilliantly incorporated in the whole complex, both as an architecture and landscape. Even limited in space, they manage to represent the diversity of the Grasslands species and biomes on four different continents with great care and not at the expense of the animal welfare. Their Desert representation is, as debated, one of the best in non-desert zoo, but the great consistency in their work gives the edge for me.
The main reason for me to choose Schönbrunn over Bronx is the serious consistency and attention to detail, which they approach every single exhibit with. Most of their buildings and enclosures are brilliantly incorporated in the whole complex, both as an architecture and landscape. Even limited in space, they manage to represent the diversity of the Grasslands species and biomes on four different continents with great care and not at the expense of the animal welfare. Their Desert representation is, as debated, one of the best in non-desert zoo, but the great consistency in their work gives the edge for me.
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I would say that Vienna has significantly better (and often larger) enclosures for reptiles and fish.
Also noteworthy is the extensive breeding (partly on show) Vienna does with many desert fish both from Middle East and the Americas.
Hmm, none of the photos of Vienna's reptile exhibits have looked particularly impressive.
As an aside, I'll add my updated thoughts on who wins this tie. It's a pretty solid 2-1 Bronx for me. Bronx has less Desert creatures but overall has more species. Exhibit wise I think Bronx also gets the win; for Deserts Vienna has the edge, but they're beaten comprehensively on Grasslands. Add in the exceptional conservation work of Bronx (which I will try to illustrate in another post) and Bronx gets a close 2-1 win.
@ThylacineAlive has touched on some of Bronx's conservation efforts but I thought I'd add to it.
As you can see, Bronx participates in a lot of conservation efforts that are applicable to this category. They have also had tremendous success with species like the American Bison and Old-World Vultures.
- Bronx quite literally saved the American Bison from extinction. More recently, the are spearheading the American Bison Society's initiative to help the ecological restoration of the species.
- Bronx protects both Elephant species by reducing Human-Elephant conflict, monitoring Elephant numbers and protecting Elephant habitats among other things. Bronx is actively working in 12 out of the 37 African range states and 9 out of 13 Asian Elephant range states.
- Bronx helped launch the Range Wide Conservation Program (RWCP) for Cheetahs and African Wild Dogs. RWCP works with governments, NGO's and local agencies to establish national conservation plans.
- Bronx does conservation work with Lions in 5 different African countries: Mozambique, Nigeria, South Sudan, Tanzania, and Uganda. Bronx works with local communities to change farming practices to reduce conflict with Lions. They also are working to reduce illegal grazing and Lion snaring in national parks.
- Bronx works to prevent illegal poisoning of 11 different old-world Vultures. In Cambodia, WCS has stabilized some of the largest remaining populations of critically endangered white-rumped, slender-billed, and redheaded vulture species by protecting nests and supplying supplementary food.
- Bronx helps protect large, migratory populations of Guanaco by reducing tensions with farmers.
- Bronx protects all of the Migratory Asian Temperate Ungulates and have been doing so for 20 years. They do research, implemented anti-poaching initiatives and recommend policies whih protect migratory land.
As you can see, Bronx participates in a lot of conservation efforts that are applicable to this category. They have also had tremendous success with species like the American Bison and Old-World Vultures.