ZooChat Cup finals: Bronx vs Zurich

[ThylacineAlive]

While I suspect Bronx is stronger than Zurich in this category, I contend that the above are loosing arguments for Bronx in this match-up.

How so?

~Thylo

 

[Rayane]

Too many votes based on not much in my opinion as the boundaries for the category aren't even clear for everyone, it seems.
I think Bronx wins this one, but not that easily.

Temperates forests count as a biome - Temperate climate is everything north of the subtropics and south of the artic circle.
Grassland + temperate forests + mountains ?

Not trying to be a pain in the ass, I just gotta say all this seems a bit random to me.

 

[Mr. Zootycoon]

@Rayane: In another thread, @CGSwans made it quite clear that this category combines two previous categories: Temperate Forest and Mountains (without the Poles!). As such grasslands are outside the scope of this match.

 

[Rayane]

@Mr. Zootycoon My bad then, sorry

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I'm somewhat bemused that so many people are complaining about this category when they didn't have a problem with it for the Vienna vs Omaha bout is it perhaps pique at the category not working well for Zurich?

 

[Mr. Zootycoon]

Currently I think Bronx has the edge, but Zurich of course has a few eye-catchers among their "temperate" exhibits, notably the Snow Leopards.

(Thanks @Arizona Docent!)

 

[Coelacanth18]

Wouldn't this also exclude grassland species like Bison and Wild horse?

I missed the Przewalski's horse and I agree with that. Bison are more associated with grasslands, but historically also inhabited temperate forests; arguably, a few populations today still live in habitats that are more open woodland than prairie.

While I suspect Bronx is stronger than Zurich in this category, I contend that the above are loosing arguments for Bronx in this match-up.

Not sure why; those both look like great enclosures to me. Large, varied elevation and terrain, look similar to natural environments...

 

[CGSwans]

I did say that I wasn’t in love with the name ‘Temperates’ when I re-engineered the categories, and I think that is the root of the problem here.

The intention, as a couple of people have noted, is for this category to encompass temperate forest environments, and montane environments. Though a Mongolian steppe or American prairie might be *in* a temperate latitude, that isn’t enough in itself for it to straddle both categories. I’m ruling them out.

I’ll further say that when montane environments were their own category that it made sense for cloud forests to straddle that category *and* tropical forests, though I don’t think that’s the case under the current circumstances. The name as currently used is really intended to give a clear home to places like the Himalayas and Andes.

I’m undecided about Ethiopian highlands. They’re not forests, so tropical forests are clearly out. I’m not sure they’re quite ‘grasslands’ either, but I will seek an expert opinion. @lintworm - do the Ethiopian highlands fall within ecologist definitions of a ‘grasslands’ environment?

 

[CGSwans]

PS. You know something’s happened when you wake up and your alerts are full of ‘somebody mentioned you in a comment’...

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I’m undecided about Ethiopian highlands. They’re not forests, so tropical forests are clearly out. I’m not sure they’re quite ‘grasslands’ either, but I will seek an expert opinion. @lintworm - do the Ethiopian highlands fall within ecologist definitions of a ‘grasslands’ environment?

For what it's worth, in the grassland rounds thus far people haven't seemed to put Ethiopian taxa forward, which would tend to suggest most people have been assuming species such as Gelada come under *this* category.

Certainly I reckon they should - as would species in other borderline places such as the Atlas Mountains and Tibetan Plateau (the latter for bioecological reasons, the former for more obvious reasons)

 

[Coelacanth18]

For what it's worth, in the grassland rounds thus far people haven't seemed to put Ethiopian taxa forward, which would tend to suggest most people have been assuming species such as Gelada come under *this* category.

Certainly I reckon they should - as would species in other borderline places such as the Atlas Mountains and Tibetan Plateau (the latter for bioecological reasons, the former for more obvious reasons)

I counted gelada primarily because they are *only* found in the Ethiopian Highlands, which seems like as good a definition for a montane species as you can get. Since Ethiopia isn't exactly temperate, though, I can see why it may not count here.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Since Ethiopia isn't exactly temperate, though, I can see why it may not count here.

Well, nor are portions of the Himalayas or Andes

 

[lintworm]

I did say that I wasn’t in love with the name ‘Temperates’ when I re-engineered the categories, and I think that is the root of the problem here.

The intention, as a couple of people have noted, is for this category to encompass temperate forest environments, and montane environments. Though a Mongolian steppe or American prairie might be *in* a temperate latitude, that isn’t enough in itself for it to straddle both categories. I’m ruling them out.

I’ll further say that when montane environments were their own category that it made sense for cloud forests to straddle that category *and* tropical forests, though I don’t think that’s the case under the current circumstances. The name as currently used is really intended to give a clear home to places like the Himalayas and Andes.

I’m undecided about Ethiopian highlands. They’re not forests, so tropical forests are clearly out. I’m not sure they’re quite ‘grasslands’ either, but I will seek an expert opinion. @lintworm - do the Ethiopian highlands fall within ecologist definitions of a ‘grasslands’ environment?

I would have the Ethiopian highlands in the mountain category, though there is a lot of grasses, the vegetation itself is less Afrotropical and has many genera normally associated with more temperate areas. In some ways the flora of Bale is closer to Europe than to lowlands 100 km away with Junipers, Thyme and Alchemilla.

 

[MRJ]

Zurich exhibit temperate zone koalas and wallabies in a rather odd desert themed house. Not sure if that is a plus or a minus.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

As the dissenting vote, I'd be interested to hear what @Giant Panda has to say on the matter particularly given the fact this is a round where I have visited neither collection.

 

[antonmuster]

And finally Zurich. [...]The remaining biomes - Grasslands and Deserts and Temperates - are weaknesses, not strengths.

I wholeheartedly disagree and cannot quite follow how you would come to this conclusion. With the fantastic snow leopard and gelada exhibits, the excellent asian highlands area, the forest aviaries, the South American camelids, and the koala, surely calling this category a weakness is a bit of a stretch?

While I suspect Bronx is stronger than Zurich in this category, I contend that the above are loosing arguments for Bronx in this match-up.

How so?

Not sure why; those both look like great enclosures to me. Large, varied elevation and terrain, look similar to natural environments...

The snow leopard and gelada enclosures at Bronx appear excellent. The same appears true for
how the zoo uses their natural ecosystem in their exhibitry to create natural environments for their species.
However, Zurich possibly excels Bronx in each of these three categories, snow leopards, gelada, as well as using the local climate/biome to create natural environments for their species. In fact, both the snow leopard and the gelada enclosure at Zurich were heavily inspired by Bronx's excellent enclosures for these species. Zurich copied many elements of these designs and improved upon them.

Some quotes on the subjects:

(snow leopards)

I would love to go there in the winter with snow sometime, to photograph what has got to be the best snow leopard exhibit in the world. Why can't anyone in America do something like this?

Snow Leopard enclosure at Zurich 31/08/09 - ZooChat

Having only seen it in photos, I think it's safe to say that this must surely be one of the most beautiful snow leopard exhibits in the world.

snow leopard exhibit - ZooChat

The best snow leopard exhibit that I've ever come across. There are steep, rocky cliffs where the cats can blend in quite impressively to the landscape.

Snowleopard exhibit - ZooChat

This does certainly resemble what the Bronx Zoo does

As does much of the rest of the exhibit, although IMO Zurich did it even better. The lack of a mesh roof makes this an even more impressive exhibit, but they "lifted" many of the public area/viewing structure details lock stock and barrel from Himalayan Highlands!

I visited Zurich Zoo in the fall of 2003 (one of 2 European zoos that I've been to!) and the snow leopard exhibit there is the best that I've ever seen. Himalayan Highlands in the Bronx is also excellent, but in terms of size and scope the Zurich habitat is outstanding.

snow leopard Exhibit 2 - ZooChat

Simply stunning. There is another photo in the gallery showing a wide angle view of the entire exhibit and it looks incredible - probably the best snow leopard exhibit around.

Snow leopards at Zürich Zoo - ZooChat

The spectacled bear, snow leopard and elephant enclosures are the stuff of legends.

(geladas)

This is one, large mixed exhibit for Gelada, Nubian Ibex, Cape Rock Hyrax and Abyssinian Blue-winged Goose.

It\'s fantastically landscaped and themed, and in most other zoos would be the best exhibit by a country mile

This exhibit is very similar to the Bronx's even larger Baboon Reserve, complete with the same species of primate, ibex and hyrax. What year did this Zurich habitat open to the public?

African Mountain exhibit at Zurich 31/08/09 - ZooChat

Yes, it's just a pity about the fake palms. Certainly the best hyrax enclosure I've seen as well!

Gelada - ZooChat

(using natural features for exhibits)

As I've said earlier in this thread, I care more about whether an exhibit allows the animals it houses to fully pursue their instincts, and less about how 'natural' that exhibit looks. But Zurich seems to understand something that more mock rock- addicted zoos don't; there's nothing more natural, or more conducive to natural behaviours, than actual natural features: grass, trees, bushes, dirt and rocks. Many of the exhibits here manage to be beautiful and complex all at the one time. More focus from designers on convincing the animals that their enclosures are something like the real thing, rather than visitors, will probably achieve the latter aim better anyway.

I'm not arguing Bronx doesn't have the edge over Zurich in this match - not having visited Bronx, I simply cannot know without more of a discussion of what else Bronx has to bring to this competition. I do however suspect, most are dismissing Zurich too easily here.

Zurich arguably beats Bronx in the standout best enclosures. It is true that Zurich doesn't have too much breadth in this category, especially regarding temperate forest hoofstock. But then, most of Bronx's hoofstock living in its temperate forest setting appear not to apply to this category either, but instead to the grasslands and desert (and savanna) category.

 

[TZDugong]

I'm going 2-1 Bronx here.

Zurich appears to have two really excellent exhibits (Snow Leopards and Geladas), as well as a few other nice areas which merits a point imo. But Bronx counters Zurich's standouts very well as they also have excellent Snow Leopard and Gelada exhibits (personally Bronx's Gelada exhibit appears to be better than Zurich's). Add on some really nice paddocks on the monorail, a terrific Tiger exhibit and a bunch of other things and this gives Bronx the win.

But then, most of Bronx's hoofstock living in its temperate forest setting appear not to apply to this category either

I wouldn't say most don't belong in the category; would I be correct in saying only the Indian Rhinos, Gaur and Bison don't count?

 

[antonmuster]

I wouldn't say most don't belong in the category; would I be correct in saying only the Indian Rhinos, Gaur and Bison don't count?

Yeah, it depends a lot on how you define the 'temperate forest' part of 'temperates'. I have something like this in mind:

So in my mind, all of India, as well as mid to southern China, and the southern US - i.e. the subtropics - don't count (unless they apply to the 'mountains' subcategory, then they do apply). Forests in those regions I would consider as part of the 'tropical forest' category.

 

[Coelacanth18]

Yeah, it depends a lot on how you define the 'temperate forest' part of 'temperates'. I have something like this in mind:

So in my mind, all of India, as well as mid to southern China, and the southern US - i.e. the subtropics - don't count (unless they apply to the 'mountains' subcategory, then they do apply). Forests in those regions I would consider as part of the 'tropical forest' category.

Not only do I disagree that some of those areas - especially the southern US - should be considered "tropical forests", but I'm also confused that the map you posted doesn't support that either?

 

[amur leopard]

but I'm also confused that the map you posted doesn't support that either?

It does, they are inside the subtropics line

Anyway, quick recap of what there is on both sides of the debate:

Bronx: Himalayan tahrs, Siberian tigers, Snow leopards, Grizzly bears, Gelada, Pere David's deer, Przewalski's horse, Woodland bird aviary and American bison.

Zurich: Snow leopard, Gelada, Red Pandas, Tigers, Small woodland aviary, Koala and Forest aviaries.

Have I missed anything? I have only visited Zurich out of the two zoos but I have to say that when I went Zurich didn't strike me as the place to go for Temperate forest wildlife, while their mountain exhibits are quite sophisticated despite there only actually being two in the whole zoo
Meanwhile Thylo has demonstrated that Bronx is quite strong in the Temperate woodland area and almost rivalling Zurich in Mountain exhibits.
Therefore, I'm going to go for 2-1 Bronx. I would, however, love to hear from @Vision of @Giant Panda because I probably have missed something key.

As for the map @antonmuster, are you considering Red pandas to mountain or forest species? If it is the latter then Zurich would have one less species by your reckoning...