ZooChat Cup finals: Plzen vs Zurich

[lintworm]

According to @antonmuster's previous post, Zurich have flightless macaws? Surely a serious blemish and a 1 out of 10?!

You really do want to dislike Zürich. I am also against flightless macaws, but the thing with pinioning is that it is irreversible and macaws are very long-lived. It is not a situation Zurich can hope to change anymore and I am sure they do the best they can for these 2 animals. I don't know when these macaws were made flightless, but it is very unlikely to have been a recent event, unlike putting Barn owls in a small dark shed.

 

[Coelacanth18]

Does anyone even know if Zurich is the reason the macaws are flightless? @antonmuster only said they have them, not that the zoo itself pinioned them. Is it also possible that they were pinioned by another zoo or in the private sector before Zurich acquired them? And what do their current accommodations look like?

 

[TeaLovingDave]

on a scale from "1" (tied down owls) to "10" (Masoala), there are simply too many in the "3-4" bracket. I find their average level of exhibitry better for ungulates, predators and herps. As I mentioned in my first post, I have little idea how this affects the birds.

The point is the barn owls at Plzen is being held up as shocking but Zurich does the same with Macaws! You are targeting the wrong person here, I am not the one who quotes animal welfare, I am just trying to bring some equality to the contest!

I'd like to point out that the Barn Owls at Plzen are *not* tied down whatsoever, as a minor point of order.... they are "merely" in a far-too-small aviary. Which is not to get away from the point that the aviary is definitely (as noted repeatedly) the worst at the collection by a long shot.

 

[pipaluk]

Does anyone even know if Zurich is the reason the macaws are flightless? @antonmuster only said they have them, not that the zoo itself pinioned them. Is it also possible that they were pinioned by another zoo or in the private sector before Zurich acquired them? And what do their current accommodations look like?

I only focused on the macaws because the owls at Plzen have taken such criticism!
I have normally voted on species anyway and will do here. I think some zoos have come in for excessive criticism for poor enclosures whilst others get conveniently ignored!
@lintworm, I don't dislike Zurich, I've never been there, just as I haven't been to Plzen, I just sense a degree of bias towards some zoos in this competition whilst there is a definite downer on others, particularly Plzen and Wroclaw!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Well, some waterfowl are well provided with swimming space, but others are really not.

And yet I've provided counter-evidence to your claims, in the form of the above photograph of the smallest pond I could find in an aviary shot - do you have *any* photographs of these alleged concrete puddles which cover only a half-metre squared, and which you claim are the rule for (your words) "most of the [waterfowl] species"? Bear in mind that a Black-winged Stilt is about 35cm long, so if your assessment is correct you're talking about a pool which is only half-again as long........

 

[lintworm]

@lintworm, I don't dislike Zurich, I've never been there, just as I haven't been to Plzen, I just sense a degree of bias towards some zoos in this competition whilst there is a definite downer on others, particularly Plzen and Wroclaw!

That is just your personal opinion, I am personally very surprised Plzen has made it this far and gets such reliable support. I personally found it to be a very average zoo with an extra-ordinary collection, not exactly my cup of tea.

 

[pipaluk]

That is just your personal opinion, I am personally very surprised Plzen has made it this far and gets such reliable support. I personally found it to be a very average zoo with an extra-ordinary collection, not exactly my cup of tea.

I respect that opinion, but extraordinary collections are what I look for if I'm travelling outside the UK. As I've said before, I'm sure Masaola is amazing, but that alone doesn't encourage me to visit Zurich above probably 15 other zoos in Europe I haven't been to yet.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I am personally very surprised Plzen has made it this far and gets such reliable support. I personally found it to be a very average zoo with an extra-ordinary collection, not exactly my cup of tea.

If it's any consolation I'm very surprised too I can think of several collections I personally think deserve to have progressed further than Plzen has, and which have fallen along the way.

As for reliable support..... just because I personally think it shouldn't have reached the top 8, it doesn't mean I'm going to avoid arguing sincerely for it's strengths where I see them in order to ensure a more "fitting" result, or feign support for the "right" contender! Elsewise I would have sat the Plzen-Chester match out, or excessively overplayed the strengths of the latter collection.... and a bit further back, avoided commenting on the Prague-Chester match so that I didn't help to push the former collection out of the Cup.

 

[FunkyGibbon]

I just sense a degree of bias towards some zoos in this competition whilst there is a definite downer on others, particularly Plzen and Wroclaw!

We can only speak for ourselves. I have certainly been quick to tilt away from Plzen in this competition, but with good reason: I am influenced by the Giant Panda school of thinking. When the category was ungulates and there no welfare concerns I happily voted for the scrappy Czech contender.

On the other hand, I consider Zurich to be one of the best zoos in the world, and in a relatively well-rounded way. So it's not a huge shock that, except in a couple of Achilles Heel categories, I consistently support it. This is especially true when Masoala is relative to the category; why wouldn't you vote with the world's best exhibit?

 

[CGSwans]

, I just sense a degree of bias towards some zoos in this competition whilst there is a definite downer on others, particularly Plzen and Wroclaw!

Citation required.

 

[pipaluk]

We can only speak for ourselves. I have certainly been quick to tilt away from Plzen in this competition, but with good reason: I am influenced by the Giant Panda school of thinking. When the category was ungulates and there no welfare concerns I happily voted for the scrappy Czech contender.

On the other hand, I consider Zurich to be one of the best zoos in the world, and in a relatively well-rounded way. So it's not a huge shock that, except in a couple of Achilles Heel categories, I consistently support it. This is especially true when Masoala is relative to the category; why wouldn't you vote with the world's best exhibit?

Again, I respect your reasoning, but for me one exhibit does not make a zoo a winner in most categories! I don't like the fact that flaws in opponents are constantly pressed whilst other zoos serious weaknesses are conveniently ignored!

 

[antonmuster]

Macaws are not the only flighted birds at Zurich held in open-topped enclosures. Pantanal, Selenga, and Semien all hold flighted birds and are open-topped. I assume that all these birds must be made flightless somehow (save for the stork colony) - a question one might ask most any zoo with e.g. waterfowl for that matter. Whether they are pinioned I do not know. As already mentioned, the situation for Macaws will be remedied soon.

For those professing shock and disgust at Zurich - how, I wonder, might Plzen make its birds in open-topped enclosures stay put?

cormorants


pelicans

flamingo

swans

 

[pipaluk]

Citation required.

I think I've explained this suggestion enough in this and other contests! Awful exhibits take a hammering off some influential members whilst some at the zoo they are voting for are conveniently ignored. Everyone has their own criteria, which I respect, but my opinion apparently is always wrong?

 

[Andrew Swales]

I have no idea, I didn't say it did! The point is the barn owls at Plzen is being held up as shocking but Zurich does the same with Macaws! You are targeting the wrong person here, I am not the one who quotes animal welfare, I am just trying to bring some equality to the contest!

I actually agree with you - and was not targeting you..! I high-lighted the phrase, as I did, because knowing staff at both of these zoos, it is not a phrase I would personally have associated with either. My point about owls (and other raptors) being tied to perches, flightless for much of their lives, was intended to illustrate the general way these birds are kept and accepted at many 'falconry centres' and behind the scenes at many 'free flight ' displays.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Macaws are not the only flighted birds at Zurich held in open-topped enclosures. Pantanal, Selenga, and Semien all hold flighted birds and are open-topped. I assume that all these birds must be made flightless somehow (save for the stork colony) - a question one might ask most any zoo with e.g. waterfowl for that matter. Whether they are pinioned I do not know.
For those professing shock and disgust at Zurich - how, I wonder, might Plzen make its birds in open-topped enclosures stay put?

Worth noting that I haven't said anything either way on the subject, let along shock and disgust - I waded into the macaw topic purely to squash the misapprehension that the owls were pinioned or tied down also, I'll fix those broken thumbnails for you now.

 

[Andrew Swales]

Macaws are not the only flighted birds at Zurich held in open-topped enclosures. Pantanal, Selenga, and Semien all hold flighted birds and are open-topped. I assume that all these birds must be made flightless somehow (save for the stork colony) - a question one might ask most any zoo with e.g. waterfowl for that matter. Whether they are pinioned I do not know. As already mentioned, the situation for Macaws will be remedied soon.

For those professing shock and disgust at Zurich - how, I wonder, might Plzen make its birds in open-topped enclosures stay put?

cormorants

pelicans
https://www.zoochat.com/community/attachments/p1300536-jpg.430502/
flamingo
https://www.zoochat.com/community/attachments/p1300932-jpg.430499/
swans

The Cormorant with its wings out-stretched has full sets of primary feathers on both wings and is not pinioned - cant see the others, sorry...

 

[Andrew Swales]

Worth noting that I haven't said anything either way on the subject, let along shock and disgust - I waded into the macaw topic purely to squash the misapprehension that the owls were pinioned or tied down also, I'll fix those broken thumbnails for you now.

There was never any misapprehension or suggestion (by me) that the owls were pinioned! I was simply making the point that in some other places, owls spend much of their lives flightless. This does not appear to be the case at Plzen.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

There was never any misapprehension or suggestion (by me) that the owls were pinioned! I was simply making the point that in some other places, owls spend much of their lives flightless. This does not appear to be the case at Plzen.

Indeed, the misapprehension was Malawi's and, as a result of that post, pipaluks.

 

[antonmuster]

Birds at Zurich and their enclosures, in no particular order:
[URL="https://www.zoochat.com/community/media/pantanal-flamingo.406735/"] [/URL]

 

[antonmuster]