ZooChat Cup finals: Wroclaw vs Zurich

[Giant Panda]

For me nothing is as low as Zurich's orangutan cage, it is disgraceful and I suspect everyone voting for Zurich has voted on the zoo's reputation or just coz its Zurich so Zurich must win and the wonderful Masaola beats anything?! That orangutan cage is shocking, imo!! Read your comments on that photo thread again @lintworm you admit the orangutan prison is s..t!!

I don't think it's fair to attribute this result to bias (again). Facing most other competitors, Zurich would deserve to lose. I agree with @antonmuster that the apes should have been prioritised for development. And I agree with you that there's no defence for the current situation. But there's no defence for Wroclaw's monkey houses either. For larger species like the colobus, Wroclaw's exhibits are small, sterile, and lack privacy. I think they're just as substandard as anything at Zurich.

If Wroclaw's monkey houses neutralise Zurich's ape house, the competition comes down to what else is on offer. Both zoos have some outstanding and innovative primate exhibits. Wroclaw's barbary macaque enclosure, gibbon/rhino exhibit, and gibbon island are wonderful, and I love how outdated exhibits have been creatively expanded (e.g. capuchins and howlers). To my mind, though, Zurich's Masoala is the world's greatest (primate) exhibit; Semien unseats the Bronx as the world's best gelada/baboon exhibit; and squirrel monkey walk-throughs are always fun.

Zurich was lucky in its opponent, but it earns a win here.

 

[FunkyGibbon]

The outdoor isn't just bad, it's a disgrace in what is probably considered a top 10 European zoo by most ! I would argue the indoor lemur hall compounds just how bad the outdoor ape 'exhibits' actually are, it doesn't compensate for them!

Are you saying here that you would consider Zurich to be a better zoo for Primates if it didn't have the world's best lemur exhibit? It seems a little far fetched as an intellectually rigorous position...

I am genuinely torn here. Zurich's Ape House is awful, really atrocious. It is in the same ballpark as Plzen's Lemur House in terms of inviting a vote against its zoo. However, there are two mitigating factors here.

1. I don't want to lean too heavily on Masoala. Despite its brilliance it only holds two visible primate species. However, it does count, as do the excellent gelada and squirrel monkey exhibits. The exotarium primate enclosures are unremarkable.

After consideration of Zurich in isolation, we find a zoo that is perfectly primed to lose to a zoo that is great in primates. But sadly, that brings us to Wroclaw....

2. I have looked in the gallery, and considered the photos on offer here. Can anyone make a case that Wroclaw has a single great primate exhibit? The closest I can get is to say that the gibbon-rhino mix seems very interesting.

If someone was to provide even some evidence of excellence from Wroclaw I would seriously reconsider my vote. I await with interest.

 

[sooty mangabey]

Wroclaw: ugly, unappealing chimp exhibit. But one fantastic gibbon island, and another gibbon display - alongside Indian rhinos - that is rather nice. Fantastic big open Barbary macaque exhibit. Lovely big open lemur island. And some very nice smaller lemur displays in the Madagascar house. The main monkey house has received some criticism, above. I think it is tremendous. It has traditional, glass fronted indoor exhibits, with some relatively large runs outside – and some wonderful species too: Mona, putty-nosed, Angolan colobus. The attached enclosure for capuchins is rather innovative, with very light fencing surrounding a fairly large space. Similarly, the howler monkeys are able to exit the house and utilise a nearby tree or two. Having them climb above your head is wonderful. And the baboon “rock“ is as brilliant or terrible as such things always are, depending on your point of view. I rather enjoy seeing such a big group of baboons constantly active.

The only significant negative is that several species are still maintained in the grand old carnivore house. Their environment there is both too small, and rather barren. The display does the zoo little credit, and is, in my opinion, far worse than the orangutan enclosure at Zürich. In theory, the monkeys’ presence there is temporary, but I’m not sure how temporary it is.

Zürich? Obviously the Masaola Hall is without equal as a display of a small number of lemurs, but it is not the place to visit if one wants to see a large number of animals. The gelada enclosure is fantastic. Am I allowed to say that I rather like the old great ape house? Yes the outdoor enclosures are limited, but the indoor area has the fantastic solidity of middle European animal houses. One or two marmoset spaces in the Exotarium, I think, but that’s it really.

Wroclaw for me!

 

[pipaluk]

Are you saying here that you would consider Zurich to be a better zoo for Primates if it didn't have the world's best lemur exhibit? It seems a little far fetched as an intellectually rigorous position...

I am genuinely torn here. Zurich's Ape House is awful, really atrocious. It is in the same ballpark as Plzen's Lemur House in terms of inviting a vote against its zoo. However, there are two mitigating factors here.

1. I don't want to lean too heavily on Masoala. Despite its brilliance it only holds two visible primate species. However, it does count, as do the excellent gelada and squirrel monkey exhibits. The exotarium primate enclosures are unremarkable.

After consideration of Zurich in isolation, we find a zoo that is perfectly primed to lose to a zoo that is great in primates. But sadly, that brings us to Wroclaw....

2. I have looked in the gallery, and considered the photos on offer here. Can anyone make a case that Wroclaw has a single great primate exhibit? The closest I can get is to say that the gibbon-rhino mix seems very interesting.

If someone was to provide even some evidence of excellence from Wroclaw I would seriously reconsider my vote. I await with interest.

Obviously my argument is that I don't think Wroclaw has a worse outdoor exhibit than Zurich's orangutan hell hole! If Masaola counteracts this (which as said before I think it makes it worse!) Then it should still be 2-1 Wroclaw, 2 good exhibits don't right an outrageous wrong in my opinion! Wroclaw walks it on species imo before enclosures are even considered, 3-0 Wroclaw fairer than 2-1 Zurich

 

[TZDugong]

I'm going 2-1 Wroclaw here.

From what I've read and the photos I've seen, Zurich seems to have two tremendous exhibits; Masaola and the Gelada Baboon enclosure which both look best-in-class. They then have two good areas; monkeys in the Pantanal and the Extoarium. They the have the Ape House which looks frankly abysmal, this very nearly disqualified them from getting the win imo.

Wroclaw on the other hand has a lot more species, and I think more consistent exhibit quality. Yes they have nothing even close to Masaola but they have nothing as bad as that Orangutan exhibit.

This match should be closer than the current 53-37 it is now.

 

[CGSwans]

It's fair enough, I guess Zurich always beats anyone regardless of a serious flaw! For me Wroclaw automatically wins 2-1 by its massive species advantage, but Masaola can't be counted as an advantage without considering the disgraceful orangutan enclosure you admitted to, there is no defence really, if Zurich wins this with such a disgusting great ape 'exhibit' we may as well stop the cup now!!

This is becoming tedious.

Your argument for voting Wroclaw is fine, but it is only one subjective argument. It is equally fine for people to point to Masoala and the other enclosures at Zurich and argue they outweigh the ape house.

There is simply no basis for this refrain that people who disagree with you are not following the spirit of the rules. I’m happy for you to disagree - respectful disagreement is what makes the Cup work! - but I emphasise the ‘respectful’ part, because when you insinuate that people are cheating you are not respecting their right to form and advance their own subjective arguments.

This is now the second Cup competition where I have had to repeatedly rebut the claim from you that certain zoos you happen to dislike have an unfair advantage. I don’t understand where you get this from: I don’t recall it preventing Berlin and Prague from making the final in the previous, knockout iteration of the Cup.

I understand it might be frustrating when your argument isn’t carrying the day, but I’m used to it: I reckon I vote for the losing zoo more often than most. It’s part of the game, I’m afraid.

 

[pipaluk]

This is becoming tedious.

Your argument for voting Wroclaw is fine, but it is only one subjective argument. It is equally fine for people to point to Masoala and the other enclosures at Zurich and argue they outweigh the ape house.

There is simply no basis for this refrain that people who disagree with you are not following the spirit of the rules. I’m happy for you to disagree - respectful disagreement is what makes the Cup work! - but I emphasise the ‘respectful’ part, because when you insinuate that people are cheating you are not respecting their right to form and advance their own subjective arguments.

This is now the second Cup competition where I have had to repeatedly rebut the claim from you that certain zoos you happen to dislike have an unfair advantage. I don’t understand where you get this from: I don’t recall it preventing Berlin and Prague from making the final in the previous, knockout iteration of the Cup.

I understand it might be frustrating when your argument isn’t carrying the day, but I’m used to it: I reckon I vote for the losing zoo more often than most. It’s part of the game, I’m afraid.

Absolute nonsense in my opinion, whatever happened to freedom of speech?!! Why should the wonderful Masaola outweigh an outrageously terrible orangutan enclosure, just because Zurich is people's favourite zoo (click on orang photo if you want to dispute it!!) I've done nothing wrong but challenge everyone's favourite zoo! You'll get a few likes, but to criticise me for going against the grain is totally unfair, I won't bother in future! For what it's worth, who made much of a case for Zurich??!!

 

[CGSwans]

Absolute nonsense in my opinion, whatever happened to freedom of speech?!! Why should the wonderful Masaola outweigh an outrageously terrible orangutan enclosure, just because Zurich is people's favourite zoo (click on orang photo if you want to dispute it!!) I've done nothing wrong but challenge everyone's favourite zoo! You'll get a few likes, but to criticise me for going against the grain is totally unfair, I won't bother in future! For what it's worth, who made much of a case for Zurich??!!

Your freedom of speech is not being impinged, I am simply asking you to respect people’s right to courteous disagreement. I am also not criticising you for going against the grain, I am asking that you stop insinuating that those going with the grain are cheating.

I hope you will continue to participate in the Cup - when you stick to the substance your contributions are very valuable. However, threatening not to participate isn’t going to deter me from stepping in when I consider a thread is being directed off-course. Nor do I play to the crowd for ‘likes’.

 

[pipaluk]

Your freedom of speech is not being impinged, I am simply asking you to respect people’s right to courteous disagreement. I am also not criticising you for going against the grain, I am asking that you stop insinuating that those going with the grain are cheating.

I hope you will continue to participate in the Cup - when you stick to the substance your contributions are very valuable. However, threatening not to participate isn’t going to deter me from stepping in when I consider a thread is being directed off-course. Nor do I play to the crowd for ‘likes’.

OK, I will a accept your apology and move on, I'm sure your previous post wasn't intended quite as I read it!

 

[Mr. Zootycoon]

Obviously my argument is that I don't think Wroclaw has a worse outdoor exhibit than Zurich's orangutan hell hole! If Masaola counteracts this (which as said before I think it makes it worse!)

How does this work? The zoo has a terrible primate exhibit, that's true. But how does the fact that it also has a brilliant one makes it even worse?

 

[TeaLovingDave]

2. I have looked in the gallery, and considered the photos on offer here. Can anyone make a case that Wroclaw has a single great primate exhibit? The closest I can get is to say that the gibbon-rhino mix seems very interesting.

I seem to recall that a few rounds back someone - I cannot recall who - was arguing that the Barbary Macaque exhibit was particularly good; I wasn't incredibly taken with it myself, but from what I recall it was certainly on the better-than-average end of the scale.

Wroclaw on the other hand has a lot more species, and I think more consistent exhibit quality. Yes they have nothing even close to Masaola but they have nothing as bad as that Orangutan exhibit.

For what it is worth, this sums up reasonably well why I have voted hesitantly 2-1 for Wroclaw; Zurich definitely has exhibits much better than anything at Wroclaw, but equally it has exhibits worse than anything at Wroclaw. It's a very close-run thing, to be honest, and I wish yet again a 50/50 vote was an option the only thing which tipped the scales is that, excellent though Masaola is from all accounts, almost all of the primates within are effectively offshow (as @FunkyGibbon has noted) and therefore it cannot be relied on too strongly as a basis of judgement.

 

[pipaluk]

How does this work? The zoo has a terrible primate exhibit, that's true. But how does the fact that it also has a brilliant one makes it even worse?

Yes, because they have spent a fortune on a new unnecessary one whilst the terrible one remains!!

 

[FunkyGibbon]

OK, I will a accept your apology and move on, I'm sure your previous post wasn't intended quite as I read it!

What apology?

Yes, because they have spent a fortune on a new unnecessary one whilst the terrible one remains!!

This is the first time I have heard Masoala described as 'unnecessary'.

 

[pipaluk]

What apology?



This is the first time I have heard Masoala described as 'unnecessary'.

The apology from CGSwans for his perceived personal attack, which I now accept he has effectively retracted!!

 

[pipaluk]

What apology?



This is the first time I have heard Masoala described as 'unnecessary'.

I think a new orangutan exhibit is far more 'necessary' surely?!

 

[CGSwans]

The apology from CGSwans for his perceived personal attack, which I now accept he has effectively retracted!!

That’s *one* way of looking at it, though I think there are others. Either way, if we can move on and focus on debating issues, not intent then we’re all good. Let’s call a truce?

 

[twilighter]

I did not make pictures, unfortunately, but I will quote the Wroclaw's guidebook:

"The house for great apes was built in the mid-1970 and needs to be reconstructed and modernized to meet today's standards."

Seems like the both zoos acknowledge their Great Apes weaknesses. And the both zoos build new multi-million exhibits, since than, which not included the Hominidae.
I am not saying, that the Zurich master plan should be considered here, but want to point that the Great Apes are difficult question for the both zoos, not only for Zurich.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

This is the first time I have heard Masoala described as 'unnecessary'.

Yes, that made me double-take too

I think a new orangutan exhibit is far more 'necessary' surely?!

Even if one accepts the idea that an orangutan exhibit is more necessary - which may or may not be the case, as I don't actually recall if Masaola itself replaced an older and poorer exhibit - it need not mean that Masaola is unnecessary.

 

[pipaluk]

Sorry but future plans are irrelevant

 

[amur leopard]

I guess the question underlining this tie is essentially whether you see the glass as half empty or half full. Of course Masoala is the best Madagascar tropical exhibit in the world and one of the best tropical exhibits full stop, but given the ape house and, as has been underlined many times in this thread, especially the orangutan exhibit, does it still deserve the win? Then there is also the gelada exhibit, which I'm sure many, including myself, really like and is objectively a fantastic exhibit.

However, Wroclaw has its own pros. The gibbon and rhino mixed enclosure is, from what I have seen, intriguing, and is one of the many reasons I am trying to organise a trip there next year. There is also the aforementioned macaque enclosure which has been mentioned several times upthread.

I am finding it really hard to decide and I kinda feel the same way as @TeaLovingDave right now, but I think @sooty mangabey's post convinced me to turn in favour of Wroclaw. I guess Zurich is too sparse in this area to really *win* as opposed to the other zoo losing.