There’s a bit of a lesson for me here in how I order matches, because this would have felt rather more meaningful if it had been in the previous go-around. It *is*, however, a meeting between two of the very best ectotherm zoos on the planet, so let’s have at it, just for fun.
ZooChat Cup Group B: Berlin Zoo vs Wroclaw
- Thread starter CGSwans
- Start date
Oh boy, gotta get the popcorn for this one!
I'm probably going to end up at a 2-1 vote for one of these two zoos, 3-0 for one is an injustice to the other.
I'm probably going to end up at a 2-1 vote for one of these two zoos, 3-0 for one is an injustice to the other.
I'll gather my thoughts properly anon, but for now I'll note that having visited Wroclaw only weeks ago, and Zoo Berlin a year ago, the state of both collections is pretty fresh in my mind 
and hence I feel pretty confident in saying that although both are extremely strong where reptiles and amphibians are concerned, Berlin blows Wroclaw out of the water where fish and invertebrates are concerned and therefore it gets the overall win without a shadow of a doubt for me.
However, given how strong Wroclaw also is where a large chunk of this category is concerned, it cannot be a clean 3-0 for Berlin. As such, my vote has gone 2-1 to Berlin.
and hence I feel pretty confident in saying that although both are extremely strong where reptiles and amphibians are concerned, Berlin blows Wroclaw out of the water where fish and invertebrates are concerned and therefore it gets the overall win without a shadow of a doubt for me.However, given how strong Wroclaw also is where a large chunk of this category is concerned, it cannot be a clean 3-0 for Berlin. As such, my vote has gone 2-1 to Berlin.
If you need an incentive to really drill down into this one, should the current 2-1 consensus to Berlin hold, there would be only an approximately 1% difference between the two in percentage terms. One or two votes will still make a big difference to qualification rankings.
Been in a both zoos in last 12 months and that is one of the most difficult decisions to make. Wroclaw is very strong here, with a supreme exhibits in the Africarium, containing lots of spices from African waters. Nice local Odrarium section. Not so special Aquarium and great reptile collection in bit outdated Terarauim building with nice small butterfly room.
Berlin's imence ecotherm collection is mostly concentrated in the legendary Aquarium , where it is so impressively presented, that imo, gives slight edge over Wroclaw.
Man needs a lot of knowledge to be able to judge the two of the world's best collections and the way they are presented and I am curious to hear more educated opinions. So far I give my vote to Berlin and will follow 2:1.
Berlin's imence ecotherm collection is mostly concentrated in the legendary Aquarium , where it is so impressively presented, that imo, gives slight edge over Wroclaw.
Man needs a lot of knowledge to be able to judge the two of the world's best collections and the way they are presented and I am curious to hear more educated opinions. So far I give my vote to Berlin and will follow 2:1.
I'll gather my thoughts properly anon, but for now I'll note that having visited Wroclaw only weeks ago, and Zoo Berlin a year ago, the state of both collections is pretty fresh in my mind
However, given how strong Wroclaw also is where a large chunk of this category is concerned, it cannot be a clean 3-0 for Berlin. As such, my vote has gone 2-1 to Berlin.
After these posts I'm sitting on 2-1 Berlin but I'm still open to having my mind changed.
Voting 2-1 Berlin for now but willing to change!
Both of these zoos are going to advance from their group, and I have never been to Wroclaw, but I was just at Berlin Zoo a few months ago and the collection of ectotherms there is astonishing. Is the Berlin Aquarium a strong candidate for the world's greatest zoological building?
Main floor - 79 aquarium tanks and probably a few hundred species
Second floor - 58 reptile species in modern vivaria (plus a couple of great croc exhibits)
Third floor - 33 amphibian species and 51 invertebrate species
I counted exactly 185 exhibits within the Berlin Aquarium, with hundreds of species that represent an astonishing array of captive wildlife. Is it enough for a 3-0 victory? Probably not, due to Wroclaw's superb collection throughout both the old-fashioned Reptile House and modern Afrykarium.
My vote is 2-1 Berlin Zoo
Main floor - 79 aquarium tanks and probably a few hundred species
Second floor - 58 reptile species in modern vivaria (plus a couple of great croc exhibits)
Third floor - 33 amphibian species and 51 invertebrate species
I counted exactly 185 exhibits within the Berlin Aquarium, with hundreds of species that represent an astonishing array of captive wildlife. Is it enough for a 3-0 victory? Probably not, due to Wroclaw's superb collection throughout both the old-fashioned Reptile House and modern Afrykarium.
My vote is 2-1 Berlin Zoo
Does Berlin really deserve such an easy win? Wroclaw's reptile house is immense and thie reptile + amphibian collection is probably 2x as large if not more than the one in Berlin. In addition isn't there quite a selection of invertebrates in there as well.
Zoo Berlin might have more species of fish, but based on pictures the aquaria in Wroclaw look much more impressive than the endless row of small tanks that is the Zoo Berlin aquarium...
Zoo Berlin might have more species of fish, but based on pictures the aquaria in Wroclaw look much more impressive than the endless row of small tanks that is the Zoo Berlin aquarium...
I've only been to Berlin once, quite a long time ago, (I plan to go again in two years' time) and I do recall the aquarium being massive but also quite boxy and linear. I was under the impression for some reason that this had changed in the meanwhile. It seems not...
I must say that @lintworm's post has caused me to rethink my vote, but I'm not changing it just yet, because I am going to look at the species lists + extra photos to decide. I will come back with the species lists and photos, and then we can evaluate from there I guess.
OK so
Reptiles
Berlin : 90
(3 species of crocodilian, 11 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Wroclaw: 236
(5 species of crocodilian, 27 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Conclusion: Wroclaw has almost three times as many reptiles and Berlin has proportionally more EN/CR species and crocs.
Amphibians:
Berlin: 67
(6 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Wroclaw: 57
(12 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Conclusion: Berlin has slightly more amphibians, Wroclaw has a much greater proportion of endangered species.
Fishes:
Berlin: 571
(15 species of shark, 24 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Wroclaw: 373
(8 species of shark, 25 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Conclusion: Berlin has around 1.5 times more fish, (Wroclaw has soo many fish!) and proportionally more sharks, but Wroclaw has significantly more endangered species proportionally.
Overall numbers:
Berlin: 728 species
(41 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Wroclaw: 666 species
(64 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Overall conclusion: Berlin has 1.09 times more species, but Wroclaw has proportionally far more Endangered species.
Make what you will out of this data.
Reptiles
Berlin : 90
(3 species of crocodilian, 11 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Wroclaw: 236
(5 species of crocodilian, 27 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Conclusion: Wroclaw has almost three times as many reptiles and Berlin has proportionally more EN/CR species and crocs.
Amphibians:
Berlin: 67
(6 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Wroclaw: 57
(12 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Conclusion: Berlin has slightly more amphibians, Wroclaw has a much greater proportion of endangered species.
Fishes:
Berlin: 571
(15 species of shark, 24 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Wroclaw: 373
(8 species of shark, 25 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Conclusion: Berlin has around 1.5 times more fish, (Wroclaw has soo many fish!) and proportionally more sharks, but Wroclaw has significantly more endangered species proportionally.
Overall numbers:
Berlin: 728 species
(41 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Wroclaw: 666 species
(64 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Overall conclusion: Berlin has 1.09 times more species, but Wroclaw has proportionally far more Endangered species.
Make what you will out of this data.
Also Invertebrates 331 species in Berlin (2017). I do not have info for Wroclaw, but they are significantly less, at least on-show.
OK well there really wasn't much in terms of photos of Berlin's reptile and amphibian enclosures, in fact there weren't any photos of reptiles and their surroundings at all until page 41.
Going through virtually the whole Berlin zoo gallery was, however, a funny experience, because it drew my attention to how different people take photos in zoos. Photos ranged from very good quality but entirely of the animals, to one person seemingly taking around 40 photos of the same rock (very exhibit focused). Fyi that is pages 60-61 of the Berlin zoo media gallery, just in case @Simon Hampel wants to delete a few so there isn't unnecessary clogging of the gallery...
Anyway, back to the point, here are the (few) photos I managed to find in the gallery:
For the avoidance of doubt, these are Berlin zoo's reptile and amphibian photos.
What seems to be, from what I can see, a good exhibit for copperheads, with a skull in the enclosure?
Again, I can't say anything for sure, but the enclosure seems to be nice, but would need someone who has been there recently and knows the zoo well to fill us in.
Probably the best photo we have of a Berlin zoo reptile and amphibian exhibit....
Looks good but can't infer much else.
And same for this one
Conclusion: Can't really make a conclusion except that it would be great if someone who has been to the zoo in the last 5 years would give us a run through of the reptile and amphibian enclosures.
EDIT: I have just realised all the reptile photos are under Berlin zoo Aquarium, and I just remembered that the reptile house is basically inside the aquarium!
Ignore this post! (largely, although you can still use the above photos...
Going through virtually the whole Berlin zoo gallery was, however, a funny experience, because it drew my attention to how different people take photos in zoos. Photos ranged from very good quality but entirely of the animals, to one person seemingly taking around 40 photos of the same rock (very exhibit focused). Fyi that is pages 60-61 of the Berlin zoo media gallery, just in case @Simon Hampel wants to delete a few so there isn't unnecessary clogging of the gallery...
Anyway, back to the point, here are the (few) photos I managed to find in the gallery:
For the avoidance of doubt, these are Berlin zoo's reptile and amphibian photos.
What seems to be, from what I can see, a good exhibit for copperheads, with a skull in the enclosure?
Again, I can't say anything for sure, but the enclosure seems to be nice, but would need someone who has been there recently and knows the zoo well to fill us in.
Probably the best photo we have of a Berlin zoo reptile and amphibian exhibit....
Looks good but can't infer much else.
And same for this one
Conclusion: Can't really make a conclusion except that it would be great if someone who has been to the zoo in the last 5 years would give us a run through of the reptile and amphibian enclosures.
EDIT: I have just realised all the reptile photos are under Berlin zoo Aquarium, and I just remembered that the reptile house is basically inside the aquarium!
Ignore this post! (largely, although you can still use the above photos...
Attachments
Virtually entirely thanks to @snowleopard's, @Goura's and most of all @lintworm's photos (thanks yall) here are some photos of the Berlin zoo Aqaurium and reptile and amphibian house.
Ok so starting with a rather odd gharial exhibit. On the one hand, it is extremely well-planted as can be seen in photo #3. However, it looks slightly on the small side for such a large crocodile exhibit (I'm pretty sure even the Pafos zoo enclosure for Nile crocs (often smaller than gharials) is larger than that) and a frankly odd underwater viewing area by the looks of it. So pretty meh... I'm not sure I like it...
An extra photo of the crocodile hall, with its extravagant planting, etc...
A long row of quit a few reptile exhibits, with pools and underwater viewing. Look quite large and nice, but a bit too similar perhaps?
An example of a terrarium...This one seems to be for gila monsters and some kind of agamid... For size reference, the thing sticking out on top of the lit up rock to the right is the agama's body and the gila monster seems to be in the rockpool (I think, that might not even be a gila monster
)
Looks could, has a few caves to the left, basking area, planted with xerophytes to resemble the North American desert. There are places to hide, but perhaps a few more would probably be welcome.... Exhibit is large and well-sized.
By the looks of it, and sort of confirmed by the large animal in the bottom centre of the exhibit, this enclosure is for Rhinoceros iguana, if I'm not mistaken. The enclosure itself is very large at first sight, but then if you substract the area of the large rocky bits, the area is reduced (although the iguanas can climb onto it. Environment seems a bit too desert-like fora Rhinoceros iguana, they live on rocky outcroppings and grasslands in the Caribbean...
Pool could be slightly larger but otherwise a great exhibit!
Another corridor-full of reptile exhibits. I have to say, they all seem really good... If you really wanna be pedantic, the tiling on the floor doesn't look great, but that isn't really relevant. Some pretty big and deep pools there as well.
Lastly, we have the tuatara enclosure. It is large... And thickly-planted, but that also means that the visitors never see them and they have so many hiding places that it is virtually impossible for zoo nerds to catch a glimpse of this highly-sought-after reptile. In fact, the caption to this photos was: 'Has anyone actually ever seen a tuatara here? Beautiful enclosure but.....'
More in the next post, which might take a while in coming because I gotta do something for now.
Ok so starting with a rather odd gharial exhibit. On the one hand, it is extremely well-planted as can be seen in photo #3. However, it looks slightly on the small side for such a large crocodile exhibit (I'm pretty sure even the Pafos zoo enclosure for Nile crocs (often smaller than gharials) is larger than that) and a frankly odd underwater viewing area by the looks of it. So pretty meh... I'm not sure I like it...
An extra photo of the crocodile hall, with its extravagant planting, etc...
A long row of quit a few reptile exhibits, with pools and underwater viewing. Look quite large and nice, but a bit too similar perhaps?
An example of a terrarium...This one seems to be for gila monsters and some kind of agamid... For size reference, the thing sticking out on top of the lit up rock to the right is the agama's body and the gila monster seems to be in the rockpool (I think, that might not even be a gila monster
)Looks could, has a few caves to the left, basking area, planted with xerophytes to resemble the North American desert. There are places to hide, but perhaps a few more would probably be welcome.... Exhibit is large and well-sized.
By the looks of it, and sort of confirmed by the large animal in the bottom centre of the exhibit, this enclosure is for Rhinoceros iguana, if I'm not mistaken. The enclosure itself is very large at first sight, but then if you substract the area of the large rocky bits, the area is reduced (although the iguanas can climb onto it. Environment seems a bit too desert-like fora Rhinoceros iguana, they live on rocky outcroppings and grasslands in the Caribbean...
Pool could be slightly larger but otherwise a great exhibit!
Another corridor-full of reptile exhibits. I have to say, they all seem really good... If you really wanna be pedantic, the tiling on the floor doesn't look great, but that isn't really relevant. Some pretty big and deep pools there as well.
Lastly, we have the tuatara enclosure. It is large... And thickly-planted, but that also means that the visitors never see them and they have so many hiding places that it is virtually impossible for zoo nerds to catch a glimpse of this highly-sought-after reptile. In fact, the caption to this photos was: 'Has anyone actually ever seen a tuatara here? Beautiful enclosure but.....'
More in the next post, which might take a while in coming because I gotta do something for now.
Attachments
On second thoughts it won't take that long coming
Again thanks to especially @lintworm but also @snowleopard and @Goura and also @Newzooboy because I forgot to thank him for the tuatara exhibit photo
Moving on to amphibians, here we have 6 exhibits for amphibians which are looking very good, spacious. Again, I don't like the tiling but that's probably just me. Very well planted, perhaps slightly hard to see the species exhibit, but we can live with that, and it also it more special if and when you do see it. Maybe a bit more water? They are amphibians....
More amphibians and another massive row of exhibits. Smaller this time, probably for the likes of poison dart frogs, although one on the left seems to be bigger than the rest...
Looking good still, although the ones in the centre of the photo look like they maybe could do with being a bit larger...
Looks great, although they are probably around 50 exhibits in a pretty small space, so probably quite hard to digest. I really like this, because they have an area devoted to insects, who often get the short end of the stick in zoos due to their 'unimportance' in the eyes of the general public.
Looking great, especially like the stained glass up top. Looks like the exhibits are landscaped very well according to each fish's habitat, but perhaps a bit too boxy and row-like..?
I think these are separate exhibits. There are freshwater ones on the left, brackish and coral reef on the right. They look great, especially the split-viewing element, and they contrast the boxy, row-like feel in other exhibits... The two photos are taken with different exposures, the top one showing the plant life well and the bottom one showing the underwater landscaping well. I think these are some of Berlin's best aquarium tanks and they are really good.
This seems to be an exhibit that showcases the impact of plastic on the ocean and is meant to shock people. I think it does, and it does its job. However, it used to be a krait exhibit, and it looks quite small for a krait so....
Can't really see it too well because of the darkness inside the aquarium but it appears to be a large exhibit for schooling fish. Looking good, again.
There are larger tanks for sharks I think but I couldn't find any photos of them...
And lastly some nice jellyfish exhibits. Probably slightly cramped for the sheer number of organisms in there, but again, the stained glass is nice. Would love to see them with more space though.
Conclusion: very good reptile and amphibian area, although, as @lintworm pointed out, the tanks can get a little boxy and row-like at times, which I guess just comes with the fact that they house so many species in a (relatively) small space.
Still not decided what I'm voting...
Wroclaw should be up within an hour and a half (hopefully)
Again thanks to especially @lintworm but also @snowleopard and @Goura and also @Newzooboy because I forgot to thank him for the tuatara exhibit photo
Moving on to amphibians, here we have 6 exhibits for amphibians which are looking very good, spacious. Again, I don't like the tiling but that's probably just me. Very well planted, perhaps slightly hard to see the species exhibit, but we can live with that, and it also it more special if and when you do see it. Maybe a bit more water? They are amphibians....
More amphibians and another massive row of exhibits. Smaller this time, probably for the likes of poison dart frogs, although one on the left seems to be bigger than the rest...
Looking good still, although the ones in the centre of the photo look like they maybe could do with being a bit larger...
Looks great, although they are probably around 50 exhibits in a pretty small space, so probably quite hard to digest. I really like this, because they have an area devoted to insects, who often get the short end of the stick in zoos due to their 'unimportance' in the eyes of the general public.
Looking great, especially like the stained glass up top. Looks like the exhibits are landscaped very well according to each fish's habitat, but perhaps a bit too boxy and row-like..?
I think these are separate exhibits. There are freshwater ones on the left, brackish and coral reef on the right. They look great, especially the split-viewing element, and they contrast the boxy, row-like feel in other exhibits... The two photos are taken with different exposures, the top one showing the plant life well and the bottom one showing the underwater landscaping well. I think these are some of Berlin's best aquarium tanks and they are really good.
This seems to be an exhibit that showcases the impact of plastic on the ocean and is meant to shock people. I think it does, and it does its job. However, it used to be a krait exhibit, and it looks quite small for a krait so....
Can't really see it too well because of the darkness inside the aquarium but it appears to be a large exhibit for schooling fish. Looking good, again.
There are larger tanks for sharks I think but I couldn't find any photos of them...
And lastly some nice jellyfish exhibits. Probably slightly cramped for the sheer number of organisms in there, but again, the stained glass is nice. Would love to see them with more space though.
Conclusion: very good reptile and amphibian area, although, as @lintworm pointed out, the tanks can get a little boxy and row-like at times, which I guess just comes with the fact that they house so many species in a (relatively) small space.
Still not decided what I'm voting...
Wroclaw should be up within an hour and a half (hopefully)
Attachments
I haven't been to Wroclaw yet, so based on the early comments I was probably going to vote 2-1 Berlin. Now I'm not so sure having seen Wroclaw has more than twice as many reptile species. For me the reptiles will be the decider which zoo gets the extra point. I will have to look at species lists for both.
I apologise for not writing out the species lists, but I thought that they were a bit too long... around 1400 species in total in both zoos...
Don't worry, I didn't expect you to!