ZooChat Cup Group B: Berlin Zoo vs Wroclaw

Berlin Zoo vs Wroclaw

  • Total voters
    37
  • Poll closed .
amur leopard said:
I agree with pretty much absolutely everything you said there except that. Wroclaw's terrarium system is not different, (from what I have seen) to Berlin's - in fact I'd even say Berlin's looks a bit better....
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Let me clarify my statement. Berlin has better herp displays in the Aquarium than Wroclaw has in the Terrarium, no question about that. That is not to say that there aren't nice enclosures in the Terrarium and Wroclaw definitely has more species on-exhibit despite what's been implied earlier, but Berlin is definitely more consistent in its husbandry standards here. When it comes to the superb design of the Odrarium and the fantastic and borderline jaw-dropping displays in the Afrykarium, though, Berlin simply cannot compete. The point I was trying to make is that best of what Wroclaw has to offer (which is several enclosures across multiple exhibits) far exceeds anything at Berlin, even though Berlin does better than Wroclaw in some other areas.

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
borderline jaw-dropping displays in the Afrykarium
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Shameful secret-admission time; although the Afrukarium was very good indeed, I thought it fell far short of the hype given that prior to my visit, I had read so many people praising it as one of the greatest exhibits in Europe :eek: certainly I wouldn't call it "borderline jaw-dropping" as far as aquarium exhibits go.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
Shameful secret-admission time; although the Afrukarium was very good indeed, I thought it fell far short of the hype given that prior to my visit, I had read so many people praising it as one of the greatest exhibits in Europe :eek: certainly I wouldn't call it "borderline jaw-dropping" as far as aquarium exhibits go.
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On the reverse, I went into it having literally zero prior knowledge other than knowing that's where they keep their hippos and manatees and that it's said to be excellent. :p

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
When it comes to the superb design of the Odrarium and the fantastic and borderline jaw-dropping displays in the Afrykarium, though, Berlin simply cannot compete. The point I was trying to make is that best of what Wroclaw has to offer (which is several enclosures across multiple exhibits) far exceeds anything at Berlin, even though Berlin does better than Wroclaw in some other areas.
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That is the impression I got from my research. However, the Afrykarium and Odrarium are only relevant in this tie when we are talking about fish (to give Wroclaw a point based entirely off of their Nile croc exhibit would be ridiculous), which seems to lead to the conclusion that Wroclaw only 'far exceeds' Berlin in one of the criteria...
For me, there are 3 categories and 3 points to be awarded. Fish goes to Wroclaw, fair and square. However, both amphibians & insects as well as reptiles go to Berlin due to the lack of competition in those fields from Wroclaw... which leads to a score of 2-1 to Berlin.
 
amur leopard said:
However, the Afrykarium and Odrarium are only relevant in this tie when we are talking about fish (to give Wroclaw a point based entirely off of their Nile croc exhibit would be ridiculous),
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amur leopard said:
However, both amphibians & insects as well as reptiles go to Berlin due to the lack of competition in those fields from Wroclaw... which leads to a score of 2-1 to Berlin.
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You can't just dismiss the Nile Crocodile exhibit at Wroclaw as irrelevant for the purposes of this tie, and then go on to say Wroclaw poses no competition where reptiles are concerned :p presumably on the basis that you already declared the Nile Crocodile exhibit doesn't count and hence it cannot be cited as a reptile asset in the wider discussion....
 
TeaLovingDave said:
You can't just dismiss the Nile Crocodile exhibit at Wroclaw as irrelevant for the purposes of this tie, and then go on to say Wroclaw poses no competition where reptiles are concerned :p presumably on the basis that you already declared the Nile Crocodile exhibit doesn't count and hence it cannot be cited as a reptile asset in the wider discussion....
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What I am saying is that Wroclaw's terrarium + Nile croc exhibit does not = Berlin terrarium. Didn't mean anything else, sorry if I didn't make it clear.
 
amur leopard said:
That is the impression I got from my research. However, the Afrykarium and Odrarium are only relevant in this tie when we are talking about fish (to give Wroclaw a point based entirely off of their Nile croc exhibit would be ridiculous), which seems to lead to the conclusion that Wroclaw only 'far exceeds' Berlin in one of the criteria...
For me, there are 3 categories and 3 points to be awarded. Fish goes to Wroclaw, fair and square. However, both amphibians & insects as well as reptiles go to Berlin due to the lack of competition in those fields from Wroclaw... which leads to a score of 2-1 to Berlin.
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You're missing my point here. I'm trying to say that exhibit-wise-- ignoring which ectotherms are in them, which isn't really relevant to my point-- Wroclaw comes out on top. The Aquarium is fantastic, but I can't imagine anyone really thinking that it's more memorable than the Afrykarium. I'm not talking about the different animal groups here, I'm talking about the exhibits they're held in.

Regardless, the Afrykarium is not only relevant when talking about fish (even if it was, I think it's unfair to undermine the importance of fish, especially when Wroclaw and Berlin are so close when it comes to herps) since there are invertebrates and other herps besides the crocodiles exhibited in the building. There are various turtles/tortoises including sea turtles (mixed with manatees) here as well as the crocodiles, which altogether make for some pretty noteworthy reptile inclusion. I also remember ants being displayed nearish to the entrance.

"...lack of competition" is a rather huge exaggeration as well, considering Wroclaw has more herp species than Berlin and more species on-display across multiple exhibits, including several that are better than anything at Berlin. I agree that the often smallish enclosures in the Terrarium bring Wroclaw down a bit in this area, but I don't think anyone here would agree that that drops them so far down that they can't even compete with Berlin anymore.

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
I don't think anyone here would agree that that drops them so far down that they can't even compete with Berlin anymore.
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Indeed; in fact this is perhaps the round where I most wish a 1-1 vote to register the belief a match is truly too close to call were available :p
 
Shorts said:
Post #40 dude! I suspect Wroclaw also has a chunk of aquatic inverts too.
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I did see that post and I did take it into account... however, as you said, they are rudimentary, compared to Berlin's 300 species housed in vivaria the size of Wroclaw's boa vivarium, so....

ThylacineAlive said:
"...lack of competition" is a rather huge exaggeration as well, considering Wroclaw has more herp species than Berlin and more species on-display across multiple exhibits, including several that are better than anything at Berlin. I agree that the often smallish enclosures in the Terrarium bring Wroclaw down a bit in this area, but I don't think anyone here would agree that that drops them so far down that they can't even compete with Berlin anymore.

~Thylo
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Sadly, excellence in one field and meh-ness in another from Wrolcaw is not going to match Berlin's consistent very good-ness. On the one hand, they have fantastic one-of-their-kind exhibits in the Odrarium and Afrykarium, and then on the other hand they have mediocre and shabby at best, small and stuffy at worst exhibits. I, personally, don't think that warrants a win if we back away from the one-point-per-animal-group thing.
 
Ebirah766 said:
I'm going 3-0 Berlin, they just have so many advantages over Wroclaw.
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Woah- ok...

What makes you say that...
I mean I think Berlin should win, but only just, and certainly not by that margin... :)

I would love to hear your reasoning..
 
First of all, Berlin has more endangered reptiles, which is very important from a conservation standpoint. Their way of displaying the animals is also incredible (IMO I like large rows of modern exhibits), and their aquarium is stunning, they have almost 200 more fish species than Wroclaw. I don't know that much about Wroclaw, but even if I did, I still feel like I would vote for Berlin.
 
amur leopard said:
I did see that post and I did take it into account... however, as you said, they are rudimentary, compared to Berlin's 300 species housed in vivaria the size of Wroclaw's boa vivarium, so....
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300 invert species?? And I think that's a bit of an exaggeration on the sizes of both. However...

amur leopard said:
Sadly, excellence in one field and meh-ness in another from Wrolcaw is not going to match Berlin's consistent very good-ness. On the one hand, they have fantastic one-of-their-kind exhibits in the Odrarium and Afrykarium, and then on the other hand they have mediocre and shabby at best, small and stuffy at worst exhibits. I, personally, don't think that warrants a win if we back away from the one-point-per-animal-group thing.
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I understand your reasoning and certainly do not think your thought process is misplaced. I do still think "meh-ness" is being a bit harsh, but regardless I can't really argue against your position.

Ebirah766 said:
I'm going 3-0 Berlin, they just have so many advantages over Wroclaw.
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This, though, is some BS :p Not to mention absolutely zero quantifications!

~Thylo
 
Ebirah766 said:
First of all, Berlin has more endangered reptiles, which is very important from a conservation standpoint. Their way of displaying the animals is also incredible (IMO I like large rows of modern exhibits), and their aquarium is stunning, they have almost 200 more fish species than Wroclaw. I don't know that much about Wroclaw, but even if I did, I still feel like I would vote for Berlin.
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Where are you getting 200 more fish species from? That is definitely not true and Wroclaw displays far more fish in far better displays.

~Thylo
 
amur leopard said:
OK so

Reptiles
Berlin : 90
(3 species of crocodilian, 11 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Wroclaw: 236
(5 species of crocodilian, 27 Critically endangered or Endangered species)

Conclusion: Wroclaw has almost three times as many reptiles and Berlin has proportionally more EN/CR species and crocs.

Amphibians:
Berlin: 67
(6 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Wroclaw: 57
(12 Critically endangered or Endangered species)

Conclusion: Berlin has slightly more amphibians, Wroclaw has a much greater proportion of endangered species.

Fishes:
Berlin: 571
(15 species of shark, 24 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Wroclaw: 373
(8 species of shark, 25 Critically endangered or Endangered species)

Conclusion: Berlin has around 1.5 times more fish, (Wroclaw has soo many fish!) and proportionally more sharks, but Wroclaw has significantly more endangered species proportionally.

Overall numbers:
Berlin: 728 species
(41 Critically endangered or Endangered species)
Wroclaw: 666 species
(64 Critically endangered or Endangered species)

Overall conclusion: Berlin has 1.09 times more species, but Wroclaw has proportionally far more Endangered species.

Make what you will out of this data.
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@ThylacineAlive I was referring to this analysis by @amur leopard
 
Ebirah766 said:
@ThylacineAlive I was referring to this analysis by @amur leopard
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As we already established, you can't go off of ztl numbers. Fish lists in particular are almost always outdated for most collections since they're hard to keep track of. People identify a species there, but then don't remove them when they're gone.

Also, using AL's list and your own criteria, you should be voting Wroclaw because they have more endangered species than Berlin...

~Thylo
 
amur leopard said:
and then on the other hand they have mediocre and shabby at best, small and stuffy at worst exhibits.
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I say this as someone technically on your side, given I'm also voting 2-1 Berlin; you really shouldn't make sweeping remarks like that based on three or four carefully handpicked photographs from a collection you've never visited. Saying the reptile exhibits at Wroclaw are "mediocre and shabby at best" is both unfair and untrue, even IF you disregard the excellent crocodile exhibit in the Afrycarium.
 
amur leopard said:
What makes you say that...
I mean I think Berlin should win, but only just, and certainly not by that margin... :)

I would love to hear your reasoning..
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I strongly suspect his reasoning is based on what will cause the most argument.....
 
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