ZooChat Cup Group B: Detroit vs Berlin Zoo
- Thread starter CGSwans
- Start date
I am curious as to why multiple people suddenly changed their votes from 2-1 Detroit to 3-0 Detroit when surely Berlin deserves some credit as discussed before? I personally think Detroit has the win here, I'm just curious as to the sudden shift in votes as the 2-1 Detroit option has dropped from 17 votes to 12.
~Thylo
~Thylo
Direct response to @Giant Panda’s post, I imagine. Care to make the case for Berlin to get those votes back?
I don't really know much of anything about Berlin's conservation programs so someone else will likely have to fill in the details on that. It just seems weird to me to not give Berlin any recognition despite its fantastic collection of small carnivores and commitment to keeping and breeding rare species.
~Thylo
~Thylo
Those people cannot all have moved to Detroit 3 Berlin 0, as there are only 4 votes for that.
As to conservation programmes in Berlin: relatively limited for such a large zoo, although I could not find exact contributions. For carnivore relevant contributions are
- Sponsoring Polar bear conservation in the Arctic
- Obligatory donation to Giant Pandas in China, though it is debatable how much of this money is actually conservation oriented....
Yeah some people also moved to 2-1 Berlin. Tbh a 3-0 win for either collection doesn't make much sense to me.
I do agree that the lack of conservation programs is a big hit against Berlin, though.
~Thylo
Giant Panda made some excellent points in their post and and this alone was enough to sway me. However, digging in more, there are yet more points in support of Detroit.
First, we should look at the plans for the Devereaux Tiger Forest, opening this year (since we also consider Berlin’s AB house renovation, this is fair). Detroit promises a large and lush tiger exhibit, and from the concept art shown in the link below it really seems as Detroit will once more open a great, new, expanded carnivore exhibit. This is their latest in a trend of new carnivore exhibits:
2001 - Arctic Ring of Life (4 acres for polar bears, arctic fox, grey and harbor seals)
2011 - lion exhibit expansion, home to rescued lions (rehomed from a circus), doubling the exhibit space
2015 - Cotton Family Wolf Wilderness, a 2 acre exhibit for grey wolves
2017 - renovated and expanded habitat for North American river otters
2018 - renovating and combining the bear grottos, consciously downsizing collection to ensure better welfare for their animals
2018 - new red panda exhibits
2019 - Devereaux Tiger Forest - Detroit Zoo to renovate, expand tiger exhibit
Furthermore, Detroit takes it beyond their own exhibits. As noted by @Giant Panda they have been a welfare leader in the zoo community for years, and also have a broad reach through their conservation programs. The following programs the zoo supports are active in the conservation of carnivores:
Isle Royale Wolf study/conservation - Michigan, USA
Eurasian Otter Study - determining how endangered they might be, tracking their recovery, and reducing human/otter conflict - Armenia
Snow Leopard/Red Panda conservation: working in collaboration with the Xinjiang Institute of Zoology in China and the Jane Goodall Institute Nepal and National Trust for Nature Conservation in Nepal to camera trap both species and reduce human/snow leopard conflicts. Detroit Zoo also supports the Snow Leopard Trust, which works in China, India, Mongolia, Pakistan, and Kyrgyzstan with locals (especially farmers) to reduce predation of livestock, increase local populations of blue sheep (prey for snow leopards), and also monitor snow leopards.
Polar/Grizzly Bear: working with several US government institutions and the village of Kaktovik in northern Alaska to study the increasing overlap of the two species and the consequences it has as both compete for resources. - Alaska, USA
Chipangali Wildlife Trust - Detroit supports research by this organization and helps care for the animals in their orphanage, including leopards, cheetahs, and brown hyenas. - Zimbabwe
As you can see, the reach of Detroit is far and wide when it comes to impacting carnivores across the globe. A leader in both welfare and conservation, both global and local, Detroit has done truly outstanding work for carnivores.
So I hope you will understand why this truly deserves the win over a zoo that keeps a few rare species in mostly average exhibits and doesn’t do much for them.
You have to give Berlin credit that they are almost solely responsable for establishing populations of Ring-tailed vontsira and Narrow-striped bokyboky in the Northern Hemisphere.... But apart from that and the Sea lion, Lion and Panda enclosures the only noteworthy is a large collection...
Tayra too, I believe.
Have they ever bred then? I have never been aware of any offspring over the past 10 years. They were one of the first to keep them in recent times though...
I could well be wrong - I'd been under the impression much of the European population was descended from their stock, but I may be thinking of somewhere else (perhaps Prague?)
sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
This is the sort of erudite, well-informed, interesting post that makes both this site, and more specifically a thread such as this, really worth reading. However, I have to say that I do not necessarily agree that such work, noble and admirable though it may be, puts Detroit on a higher level than Berlin. Of course, the plight of “rescued“ pets is something about which anybody with any sensitivity would feel concern. But is this what a zoo should be doing? If resources are being devoted to stray cats and dogs, they are not being devoted to cheetahs and mongooses – and that seems to me to be a real wrong-turn. I’m not saying that stray cats and dogs do not merit resources – of course they do. But, for me, zoos should be about wild animals, rather than domestics. I must admit, too, that I find the blurring of the line between Detroit’s status as a zoo, and its role as a “sanctuary“, slightly troubling. I can’t quite put my finger on it, and again, of course, I am delighted that, for example, some Lions have been rescued from a circus and are now living out what one presumes to be a somewhat better existence. However, it doesn’t really feel to be the sort of thing that a zoo should be about.
Prague sounds more likely. I haven't found any evidence of Tayra breeding on any of the German zoo forums, which are generally very well informed on all matters Berlin. Alas in all of my visits in recent years (2007, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2018) they always only had 1.1.
The shift of people posting more strongly in favour of Berlin is however bigger. A large part apparently doesn't want to see Detroit winning this match. Which is a downside of having more options, as tactic voting is easier...
Oh I do believe that Detroit does deserve the win here, I was just curious to hear the reasoning behind the seemingly sudden shift in voting. I'm still keeping my vote at 2-1 in Detroit's favor, though if a 3-1 option were available that'd likely be more appropriate imo...
I respectfully disagree with you here. For one, Detroit is very clearly doing a lot more work for wild carnivores than they are domestic, so it's not as though they're trading in the former for the latter. Secondly, helping to rehome domestics is beneficial to native conservation. The less stray/feral cats and dogs there are on the streets and in the woods, the less of a negative impact these man-made creatures can have on the ecosystem. Beardsley Zoo works hard to spay and neuter feral cats that live on and around the zoo grounds, which has had a remarkable impact on the local wildlife. I do, however, agree that this work doesn't quite hold the same weight as working with wild species.
I have just noticed that, yeah... with many votes being given to Berlin without any kind of explanation than to Detroit. I'm also very interested to hear the perspectives of those who believe Detroit get no points here @TeaLovingDave, @Giant Eland, @Batto, @drill, among others (not calling anyone out in particular, I'm just interested to hear their perspectives).
~Thylo
sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
A very good point, which I must confess to not having thought of before!
In my case, a preliminary vote I forgot I hadn't adjusted once more information came in
adjusting now.
I just voted 3-0 for Detroit. I'll outline some posts that persuaded me and why.
Even though @FunkyGibbon voted 2-1 for Detroit with this logic, I'm inclined to give even more credit than that. Big, diverse collections are great and certainly a strong point in favor of Berlin, but I think that quality > quantity is an overall good philosophy, so long as the quantity remains well-balanced (I think 12 species is enough to qualify for that). Detroit has clearly put a lot of money and effort towards showcasing its carnivores in large, natural enclosures with the opportunity to display natural and interesting behaviors, as @jayjds2 pointed out here:
This is exactly what should be encouraged in zoo exhibits, and even though it seems like a minor point I felt that it was a strong indicator. Good enclosures are especially important for carnivores compared to other species because, even when provided with enrichment and companionship, an inadequate enclosure can lead to neurotic behaviors in species like big cats. I want to see a wolverine climbing a tree, not a jaguar pacing back and forth in a cage.
The post from @Giant Panda convinced me of the logic for giving Detroit a 3-0, but I slept on it and came back to read counterarguments. After hearing about Berlin's conservation work in this category, though, and after reading about even more projects in Detroit, I have not been persuaded in the other direction.
Not to dredge up the panda debate in another thread, but the parts of this post by @lintworm that I bolded should largely explain why I don't think this counts for much. And sure, their panda exhibit looks great, but it's only one exhibit and one species. Enough to sway some, ,maybe, but not enough for me here.
I agree with the response that @ThylacineAlive gave to this just now, but I'm going to take it a step further. In my mind, zoos aren't just champions for conservation and wildlife; they are champions for animals, period. Their focus is often much more on species-level or ecosystem-level welfare than individual animal welfare (and I agree that philosophy is appropriate for them) but they also lead by example on giving attention and care to the individual animals in their care, and have put out information to the public about topics such as welfare of zoo animals, the problems with things like roadside zoos and circuses, the ethics around the exotic pet trade, and the responsibilities of pet owners in things like vaccination and bird mortality. For this reason, the program @Giant Panda mentioned should absolutely count for Detroit, regardless of the fact that the carnivores it helps are domestic rather than wild or zoo animals.
As always, my vote is not locked in place, but I'm going to have to hear a better argument than Berlin's species count before I change. I voted against the more species-rich zoo in the legendary San Diego v. Atlanta debate, and I will do it again.
Even though @FunkyGibbon voted 2-1 for Detroit with this logic, I'm inclined to give even more credit than that. Big, diverse collections are great and certainly a strong point in favor of Berlin, but I think that quality > quantity is an overall good philosophy, so long as the quantity remains well-balanced (I think 12 species is enough to qualify for that). Detroit has clearly put a lot of money and effort towards showcasing its carnivores in large, natural enclosures with the opportunity to display natural and interesting behaviors, as @jayjds2 pointed out here:
This is exactly what should be encouraged in zoo exhibits, and even though it seems like a minor point I felt that it was a strong indicator. Good enclosures are especially important for carnivores compared to other species because, even when provided with enrichment and companionship, an inadequate enclosure can lead to neurotic behaviors in species like big cats. I want to see a wolverine climbing a tree, not a jaguar pacing back and forth in a cage.
The post from @Giant Panda convinced me of the logic for giving Detroit a 3-0, but I slept on it and came back to read counterarguments. After hearing about Berlin's conservation work in this category, though, and after reading about even more projects in Detroit, I have not been persuaded in the other direction.
Not to dredge up the panda debate in another thread, but the parts of this post by @lintworm that I bolded should largely explain why I don't think this counts for much. And sure, their panda exhibit looks great, but it's only one exhibit and one species. Enough to sway some, ,maybe, but not enough for me here.
I agree with the response that @ThylacineAlive gave to this just now, but I'm going to take it a step further. In my mind, zoos aren't just champions for conservation and wildlife; they are champions for animals, period. Their focus is often much more on species-level or ecosystem-level welfare than individual animal welfare (and I agree that philosophy is appropriate for them) but they also lead by example on giving attention and care to the individual animals in their care, and have put out information to the public about topics such as welfare of zoo animals, the problems with things like roadside zoos and circuses, the ethics around the exotic pet trade, and the responsibilities of pet owners in things like vaccination and bird mortality. For this reason, the program @Giant Panda mentioned should absolutely count for Detroit, regardless of the fact that the carnivores it helps are domestic rather than wild or zoo animals.
As always, my vote is not locked in place, but I'm going to have to hear a better argument than Berlin's species count before I change. I voted against the more species-rich zoo in the legendary San Diego v. Atlanta debate, and I will do it again.
You're very kind, Sooty, and previous responders have already made the case for adoption drives in zoos. However, I'll add that they don't take resources from conservation efforts – they're a PR coup. Introducing thousands of local families to their new cat or dog fosters goodwill in the community. It partners the zoo with moderate humane groups and neutralises extremists like PETA, who euthanise thousands of healthy pets. Because the events are large enough to be newsworthy, they also generate positive local coverage which links the zoo's care for its animals to the public's care for their pets. I'm told this marketing strategy is very effective.