Well that would explain that then.
I'd imagine a large proportion of their reef fish would occur around Indonesia though, so their fish total would be much higher than Chester's.
ZooChat Cup Group B2: Berlin Zoo vs Chester
- Thread starter CGSwans
- Start date
I'd imagine a large proportion of their reef fish would occur around Indonesia though, so their fish total would be much higher than Chester's.
I'd say that's definitely true. Berlin's aquarium is much better than Chester's also, though most of Chester's fish in this category are found elsewhere in the zoo. Chester breeds a lot more endangered freshwater fish, too, so I still lean more towards them here.
~Thylo
Quite a massive overestimate for Berlin there
Not really. It has World of Birds, the Pheasantry (which is massive in its own right) and a few other exhibits scattered around the zoo.
Anyway, those are the species listed on ZTL, which I all checked individually to see if at least some of their range coincided with Asia. I did actually spend over 3 hours on the birds alone...
I applied exactly the same criteria to both Chester and Berlin.
Where have you got these figures from?
I agree. I don't think it even says anywhere in the rules (and I my be wrong) that saltwater fish are excluded. If that is the case then Berlin probably has more different species than all other European zoos combined (joking btw, but point is, it has a lot more than Chester).
Keep in mind also that many of the species are potentially off-show, although I think all of the mammals in both zoos are on-show... perhaps with the exception of Javan mongoose in Chester. Not that it matters much, since most people won't be voting on the basis of the number of fish in either.
As for enclosures...
It is a tough one, but having been to both zoos relatively recently (Chester 2018 Berlin 2017), I think I can give a relatively balanced examination (of sorts).
Chester
As you enter, you immediately see the elephant exhibit. Now this enclosure is good in landscaping, with a strange looking waterfall and a smallish pool, but the exhibit is noticeably too small. Given the number of animals they have, they certainly need more space.
Then you have the new Asiatic lion exhibit. It is an all right exhibit - certainly not as good as others Chester has. The indoor exhibit is smallish and has a cart randomly placed in the middle (India isn't underdeveloped??), and is not very suitable to the lions. It also appears that a species of mongoose will use that indoor enclosure as their enclosure, so not sure how that is going to work, but hopefully they won't be in there at the same time as the lions
. The outdoor exhibit is really rather plain. It looks kinda drab and run-down, a bit like a rubbish-dumping site. However, they are growing plants so soon the exhibit will hopefully burst into life!There is also a decent exhibit for Red pandas, which is strangely obstructed by a fence despite the minimal danger imposed by the exhibited species to the humans watching them
but otherwise it is well planted and nice-looking.Now we move on to the Greater one-horned rhinos. This exhibit is rather meh. It looks all right and has a decent amount of space, but there is room for improvement. It is nicely landscaped though.
Next, we have Islands. I have spent hours poring over the plans and designs and architectural drawings, but I cannot understand a few things about it. Firstly, why the warty pig and banteng enclosures are so small, given the wealth of space for visitors. Secondly, the purpose of the boat ride - it doesn't actually offer a better view of the exhibits.
However, most of the exhibits are well-done, with some being outstanding. For example, the sun bear and binturong is very nice and spacious. It would be outstanding if it had slightly more greenery and foliage. Due to Chester's position on the globe, it is hard to grow such foliage in the open air, but the lack of thick vegetation leaves somewhat strange tree trunks with lianas curled around them standing by themselves in the middle.
The Sumatran tiger exhibit is large and looks very nice, covered in vivid greenery. It isn't stand-out or amazing, but it is good and nice to look at, though not perfectly suited to the tigers.
The Visayan warty pig exhibit doesn't look nice, but nor does their wild habitat, so it would actually be a great enclosure if it was larger. However, regrettably, having looked at the plans and the plots of land bought by Chester, they could easily have made it larger, so I am somewhat puzzled by this.
The same goes for the bantengs. Chester holds a small herd, yet the exhibit is hardly 300 m2 in area. The substrate is nice and soft, and well suited and apart from size the exhibit is very nice.
The orangutans (as far as I know) as still housed in Realm of the Red Ape, which is nice, but a bit outdated. They have a large outdoor enclosure, perhaps slightly larger than Berlin's and a nicely done indoor enclosure, which is significantly better than Berlin's.
Lastly, Tropical Realm has a few bird species like Visayan and Greater hornbills, housed in decent aviaries pressed against the wall.
In conclusion, Chester's exhibits are nice and well planted (though not enough in the case of the tigers, sun bears and lions) and especially aesthetically pleasing. However, some need to be slightly larger and more suited to the animals in question (indoor lion enclosure/ future mongoose enclosure, warty pigs, bantengs…).
Berlin
Starting at the Löwentor (Lion gate), the first thing you see is the exhibit for Siberian ibex. This exhibit is probably one of the best mountain exhibits in Europe (probably after Prague's Barbary macaque exhibit). It consists of a very tall mountain with steep walls allowing the ibex to climb as they would in the wild.
Next, you have the Himalayan tahrs, This exhibit could be larger, but, similarly to the ibex, simulates the mountainous environment relatively well. I think this enclosure needs improvement however - it looks drab and small.
From memory, there is then a large area for eagles and vultures I believe. The griffon vulture exhibit is smallish but well landscaped generally. The golden eagle exhibit is very large and allows them lots of space to fly. They also have a large rocky area at the end of their exhibit.
Then there is a large exhibit for Greater one-horned rhinos shares with Lowland tapirs. The have a large but 60s-looking indoor area, which doesn't look very nice. However, the actual outdoor exhibit is large and nice from memory.
Then, there is a farm and to the right is World of Birds. It is truly massive and I
really liked it when I went. It has areas that are split geographically, and the exhibits are generally large-ish and glass-fronted, allowing easy viewing into the enclosure. They are well-planted and spacious generally.
After that, we have the pheasantry, which is in essence the longest row of bird exhibits I have ever seen. Every exhibit is large but not immense, with not too much height. Every exhibit is well planted and well-done.
Then there is the polar bear exhibit. It really isn't that great. It has a smallish land area and a large green pool which goes around the exhibit. Although the separation area isn't bad at all, I don't like it, especially since polar bears are one of the zoo animals that need the most space. I sincerely hope it gets renovated soon.
The Asiatic black bear exhibit was built at approximately the same time as the polar bears I think, but has aged better imo. It is of an acceptable size and has good climbing options including quite a large rocky mound in the corner.
You then pass an enclosure for Bornean bearded pigs, which is quite good and has a decent amount of space. It has soft substrate for digging in and a small pool.
Then, you have the Pandas. Now this is one of the better panda complexes in Europe (having seen Pairi Daiza, Beauval, Edinburgh, Madrid and Vienna). There are four enclosures in total, 2 indoor, 2 outdoor, one of each for the female and the male. The exhibits are really quite large, around the same size or slightly larger than Vienna's area for their pair. The indoor exhibits are also quite large, at around 1000 m2 each.
The Persian fallow deer exhibit is also nice, with a very large area devoted to breeding them. It is basically just a massive grassy field.
Then there are water buffalo and gaur, both of which have exhibits similar to those at Paris Menagerie, just bigger. Rather plain, not aesthetically pleasing, but they do the job. The one thing that surprised me was just how deep the water buffalo pool was (they could fully submerge easily).
The only Asian animals on show the other side of the road are Przewalski's horses, who have a nice a spacious enclosure.
Then, you have the Hamadryas baboons, who have a very nice mountainous area a bit like that of San Diego but less flashy and older. It is well-suited to the troop.
Then you have the orangutans, who have quite a large outdoor exhibit, but whose indoor exhibit is not at all aesthetically pleasing. It is reminiscent of 60s buildings, with low ceilings, small viewing windows and tiled walls.
Then, there is the Aquarium. I know that everyone on here probably knows a great deal about this area of the zoo due to its fame, but anyway, here goes. The Aquarium is a rather uniform bulding, with an immense number of fish aquaria, in very nice exhibits. The terrarium in the same building is equally outstanding, and there is also an entire hall devoted to insects. I haven't finished calculating how many Asian fish species there are in the aquarium but I do know that it exceeds 300.
And finally, we have the Asian elephant area. It is significantly larger than Chester's with a good amount of space. The indoor exhibit however is less good with an inevitable smell, a pretty small area, and surprisingly easy human-elephant interaction...
Anyway, in conclusion, Berlin has generally good exhibits, with a few very good ones and a few not so good ones.
In conclusion for both, I think that Chester's enclosures are only just better than those of Berlin due to some space shortages in certain enclosures, strange decisions and under-planting. However, Berlin has one or two poor enclosures and a few very good ones. It also seems to have more of a focus on birds due to the two massive complexes while still keeping a large mammal collection. As @FunkyGibbon mentioned earlier, Berlin has no geographical area groupings apart from a Polar area in the North-Eastern part of the zoo, whereas Chester does (although there are Asian exhibits scattered around the zoo apart from that).
In terms of species, Berlin does defeat Chester significantly. The Aquarium has at least 300 species of Asian fish and around 30 species f Asian insect, going by my notes. The mammal list is more impressive and spread around the continent, whereas Chester has no mammal species that can be found in the Northern half of Asia. Though Chester defeats Berlin slimly in terms of enclosures, I think that Berlin has more to offer due to its bird collection and breadth.
Finally, I would like to touch on conservation efforts.
Berlin
Zoo Berlin supports two-thirds of all international endangered species programmes worldwide.
It also holds the international studbooks for the following species:
Edwards’s pheasant, Indian bison, pileated gibbon, Persian leopard, rusty-spotted cat, sloth bear, Indian rhinoceros.
As well as the European studbooks for the following species:
Visayan spotted deer, Sichuan takin
And has started and continues to play a massive part in these endangered animal programmes:
Barded vulture,Visayan hornbill, Sumatran orangutan, polar bear, Asian elephant, Przewalski’s horse and Persian fallow deer
Chester
Participates in programmes for the following species:
Malaysian elephants, Indonesian songbirds, Painted terrapins, Javan warty pig, Philippine cockatoo, Bawean deer, Sumatran rhinos and Orangutans.
I couldn't find which studbooks Chester holds.
Anyway, having combined all of these factors and weighed them up, I am voting Berlin 2-1.
You post a lot of questionable stuff, but this particular item sounds really questionable.
Zoo Berlin supports two thirds of all international endangered species programmes.
Taken directly from their website.
Here is the link: At Zoo Berlin
FunkyGibbon
Well-Known Member
Berlin still have sloth bear, right?
I should think so since they hold the international studbook for it. Strange that it wasn't on Zootierliste though.
It was and is on Zootierliste
I think you perhaps checked the non-ssp or Sri Lankan entry and missed the Indian Sloth Bear entry.ZootierlisteHomepage
And they don't hold the studbook.
It was and is on Zootierliste
ZootierlisteHomepage
Sorry about that
That makes it 42-25 to Berlin in terms of mammals therefore.
It does indeed say that. I wonder what exactly that means...?
Ah, I see. It is deliberately worded to give a misleading impression of their importance to conservation worldwide. They aren't saying that they support two-thirds of conservation programmes worldwide, they are saying they participate in two-thirds of zoo programmes, which is a very different thing (but which also sounds like a dodgy number) - but I'd imagine any of the heavyweight European zoos would also be participating in a large proportion of the EEPs because all it really takes to do so is to have a large collection which includes a lot of the standard zoo animals, so it's not a very meaningful statistic. It looks like they are inflating it also by their inclusion of studbook animals which covers all sorts of very-much-not-endangered animals (just the quoted ESB list alone has species like Red Kangaroo and Californian Sealion).
If someone were to total up Chester's involvement in the same programmes there likely wouldn't be a huge difference between the two zoos.
For the record, at present EAZA is involved in 357 EEP/ESB/ISB programmes - and the list of programmes on the above Zoo Berlin link suggests they are involved in 62 of them, which comes to 17.36% or a little over one-sixth...... quite different from the two-thirds claimed! Conversely, flicking through the list of such programmes I can see 121 species listed which are currently at Chester
which makes me somewhat think the Berlin list is incomplete, and hence the claims made are all the shakier.
Conversely, flicking through the list of such programmes I can see 121 species listed which are currently at Chester
Sorry, I don't understand. What do you mean by this?
Put in single sentences for you
1)There are 357 ESB/EEP/ISB programmes which EAZA is involved with.
2) Berlin lists 62 species on the link you provided, and claim this comprises 2/3 of the programmes, which it does not
3) Chester is involved with 121 of the programmes.
4) I very much doubt that the disparity between Chester and Berlin is as large as this, and therefore I think that the list provided by Berlin is incomplete.
5) Therefore between the implicit claims to be involved in c.240 programmes, and explicit claims to be involved in 62 programmes - neither of which is accurate - the page you linked should not be used as empirical evidence for the purposes of this match.
That doesn't mean it's not an overestimate. The vast majority of the birds in those two exhibits are from Africa and Oceania.
My post says where I got them from.
Chester holds the studbook for Javan Banteng I believe, as well as a deer? They also manage the European babirusa program even though they aren't officially the studbook holder and they house around half of all babirusa in Europe. I'm not sure about birds.
No it does not? You've continued to just add species to Berlin's list despite many posts now telling you it's incorrect and some of the species you're counting don't count for this match.
~Thylo
Including non-Asian species, Chester manages the following - Asian taxa in bold:
Mountain chicken frog (Leptodactylus fallax)
Black-eyed leaf frog (Agalychnis moreletii)
Lake Patzcuaro salamander (Ambystoma dumerilii)
Komodo dragon (Varanus komodoensis)
Ecuadorian amazon (Amazona lilacina )
Blue-throated macaw (Ara glaucogularis)
Sumatran laughingthrush (Garrulax bicolor)
Javan green magpie (Cissa thalassina)
Colombian spider monkey (Ateles fusciceps rufiventris)
Rodrigues fruit bat (Pteropus rodricensis)
Margay (Leopardus wiedii)
Jaguar (Panthera onca)
Eastern black rhinoceros (Diceros bicornis michaeli)
Banteng (Bos javanicus)
Burmese brow-antlered deer (Rucervus eldii thamin)
Eastern bongo (Tragelaphus eurycerus isaaci)
Conversely, Berlin Zoo manages the following:
Ring-tailed vontsira (Galidia elegans)
Bokiboky (Mungotictis decemlineata)
Either that's a programme that has been dropped entirely, or one which is newer than July 2019 (the most recent date for the list I am looking at) as the taxon appears not to have a programme at all presently.
I don't want to cause any unnecessary conflict but I do want to know why you've repeatedly implies the zoo has something against India? There are a lot of farms in rural India, and cattle/buffalo-drawn carts are going to be very commonplace here. Bronx's monorail has a section with buildings designed after a traditional Indian plantation, this doesn't mean they're stereotyping Indian people or implying they're underdeveloped, it's an accurate representation of an aspect of life in a large portion of the country.
~Thylo