ZooChat Cup Group B2: Berlin Zoo vs Chester

Asia: Berlin Zoo vs Chester

  • Total voters
    31
  • Poll closed .
Just noticed the following incorrect information with regards to Zoo Berlin's studbooks....

amur leopard said:
It also holds the international studbooks for the following species:
Edwards’s pheasant, Indian bison, pileated gibbon, Persian leopard, rusty-spotted cat, sloth bear, Indian rhinoceros.

As well as the European studbooks for the following species:
Visayan spotted deer, Sichuan takin
Click to expand...

As noted, the only two studbooks held by Zoo Berlin are the pair of euplerids!

Edwards Pheasant - Prague
Gaur - Paris Jardin des Plantes
Pileated Gibbon - Vacant, formerly held by Zurich
Persian Leopard - Lisbon
Rusty-spotted Cat - Frankfurt
Sloth Bear - Munster
Indian Rhinoceros - Basel
Visayan Deer - Landau
Takin - HWP

In other words..... don't make things up :p
 
TeaLovingDave said:
In other words..... don't make things up :p
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Sorry, but in all fairness I need to step in here. This comment is unjustified.

Amur Leopard has evidently taken the above information from this page: At Zoo Berlin

It clearly makes the claim that a) Berlin participates in two thirds of all international endangered species programs, and b) can certainly be read to imply that it operates the stud books listed by AL.

In short, AL isn’t making things up, Berlin Zoo is.
 
ThylacineAlive said:
I don't want to cause any unnecessary conflict but I do want to know why you've repeatedly implied the zoo has something against India? There are a lot of farms in rural India, and cattle/buffalo-drawn carts are going to be very commonplace here. Bronx's monorail has a section with buildings designed after a traditional Indian plantation, this doesn't mean they're stereotyping Indian people or implying they're underdeveloped, it's an accurate representation of an aspect of life in a large portion of the country.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I'd go as far as @amur leopard in calling it offensive or stereotyping, but I can see where they're coming from. A lot of zoos try to incorporate cultural theming into their exhibits, and it often misses the mark and comes off as exoticism. I'm unclear about whether that's the case here, as I'm honestly just confused by the indoor enclosure as a whole.

CGSwans said:
It clearly makes the claim that a) Berlin participates in two thirds of all international endangered species programs, and b) can certainly be read to imply that it operates the stud books listed by AL.

In short, AL isn’t making things up, Berlin Zoo is.
Click to expand...

I do think this is a misinterpretation partially stemming from the lack of clarity on that webpage. I think the list is of studbooks that the Berlin Zoo participates in, rather than the ones they operate. This could be implied from their first statement, but the page doesn't say it explicitly; it just begins listing studbooks with no stated purpose. And the first statement does appear obviously false.

That being said, for future matches how relevant is it what studbooks a zoo holds? I've never understood this to be of much significance, since studbook holders are tied to individual people rather than institutions.
 
Coelacanth18 said:
I do think this is a misinterpretation partially stemming from the lack of clarity on that webpage. I think the list is of studbooks that the Berlin Zoo participates in, rather than the ones they operate. This could be implied from their first statement, but the page doesn't say it explicitly; it just begins listing studbooks with no stated purpose. And the first statement does appear obviously false.
Click to expand...

Yes, I don’t know precisely what Berlin means that page to say, but my point is that AL’s interpretation is fundamentally a reasonable one. It’s good to correct wrong information, but a knee-jerk presumption of bad faith is unkind and unfair. AL has done *exactly* what I recently encouraged him to do, which is try to contribute by going and researching things he doesn’t know about, and then posting what he learns. It’s not his fault if Berlin’s webpage isn’t the reliable source it should be.

That being said, for future matches how relevant is it what studbooks a zoo holds? I've never understood this to be of much significance, since studbook holders are tied to individual people rather than institutions.
Click to expand...

That’s a relevant subject for debate and not for me to decide.
 
CGSwans said:
Yes, I don’t know precisely what Berlin means that page to say, but my point is that AL’s interpretation is fundamentally a reasonable one. It’s good to correct wrong information, but a knee-jerk presumption of bad faith is unkind and unfair. AL has done *exactly* what I recently encouraged him to do, which is try to contribute by going and researching things he doesn’t know about, and then posting what he learns. It’s not his fault if Berlin’s webpage isn’t the reliable source it should be.
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Yes, I completely agree with you. I was simply adding what I hoped was a clarification for everyone of Zoo Berlin's webpage :)

CGSwans said:
That’s a relevant subject for debate and not for me to decide.
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Good to know, although my question was more of a general opinion poll rather than a rule-based query directed at you. Personally I'm not going to use them for my own considerations, but I was curious to see if others would.
 
I am sorry for posting wrong information. I should have noticed actually because I was doing a project on pheasant studbook holders and could easily have remembered about the Edward's pheasants.

Sorry for all the confusion, I didn't mean to cause it,

AL
 
CGSwans said:
can certainly be read to imply that it operates the stud books listed by AL.

In short, AL isn’t making things up, Berlin Zoo is.
Click to expand...

Except AL didn't list all the Asian species presented in those lists, only some of them - which suggested deliberate selection of species to claim - but fair enough, I'll retract that remark

It's all moot now anyway as the round appears to have ended now.
 
Coelacanth18 said:
I'm not sure I'd go as far as @amur leopard in calling it offensive or stereotyping, but I can see where they're coming from. A lot of zoos try to incorporate cultural theming into their exhibits, and it often misses the mark and comes off as exoticism. I'm unclear about whether that's the case here, as I'm honestly just confused by the indoor enclosure as a whole.
Click to expand...

Well the first time he brought it up he called it "offensive towards Indian people", which is why I included that in. He never explicitly said it was stereotyping to be fair. I do agree it's an odd choice, though.

Coelacanth18 said:
I do think this is a misinterpretation partially stemming from the lack of clarity on that webpage. I think the list is of studbooks that the Berlin Zoo participates in, rather than the ones they operate. This could be implied from their first statement, but the page doesn't say it explicitly; it just begins listing studbooks with no stated purpose. And the first statement does appear obviously false.

That being said, for future matches how relevant is it what studbooks a zoo holds? I've never understood this to be of much significance, since studbook holders are tied to individual people rather than institutions.
Click to expand...

Genuine question, does an international studbook for Sloth Bears even exist? I know the US and Europe have always managed their populations separately.

I would say studbooks are relevant only because said zoo usually also has an excellent history/present with the taxa in question. There's not set rule afaik, but often times the zoo with the studbook is the zoo that has the most success in breeding and husbandry.

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
I would say studbooks are relevant only because said zoo usually also has an excellent history/present with the taxa in question. There's not set rule afaik, but often times the zoo with the studbook is the zoo that has the most success in breeding and husbandry.
Click to expand...
I think we can all agree, then, that surely the zoo's involvement with a certain species should hold more value than whether or not the person managing the studbook works at that zoo? I personally don't think comparisons of lists of studbooks managed by a zoo hold much value in these threads, and think a list of species that the zoo has good breeding records with would be much more valuable information. :)
 
Vision said:
I think we can all agree, then, that surely the zoo's involvement with a certain species should hold more value than whether or not the person managing the studbook works at that zoo? I personally don't think comparisons of lists of studbooks managed by a zoo hold much value in these threads, and think a list of species that the zoo has good breeding records with would be much more valuable information. :)
Click to expand...

I would agree, yes. Perfect example within this very thread is Chester not managing the babirusa studbook yet doing the better job managing the population!

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
I would agree, yes. Perfect example within this very thread is Chester not managing the babirusa studbook yet doing the better job managing the population!
Click to expand...

Except babirusas are not applicable to this match since they do not live in the definition of Asia that we are using for the matches.
 
amur leopard said:
Except babirusas are not applicable to this match since they do not live in the definition of Asia that we are using for the matches.
Click to expand...

But it's still an example which was mentioned in the course of the discussion :) which I suspect was his point.
 
amur leopard said:
Except babirusas are not applicable to this match since they do not live in the definition of Asia that we are using for the matches.
Click to expand...

I thought @CGSwans posted a couple pages ago saying Sulawesi and the Philippines counted as Asia?

Regardless, YOU included babirusa on your mammal list for Berlin and also never took them off.

~Thylo
 
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