ZooChat Cup Group D: San Diego Zoo vs St Louis

[CGSwans]

San Diego. St Louis. Birds.

The rules:

• You have three votes to award. If you think it's a tight match, award 2 votes to the stronger zoo and 1 to the weaker one. But if you think it's a wider margin than that, award all 3 votes to the winner.
• Your criteria for how you make your decision is entirely up to you, *except* that you must stay only within the given category. That includes ignoring the results of the other match: no strategic voting.
• All votes are public, and all votes can be changed. The purpose of the game is to provoke debate, so make your case for why people should vote the same way as you do. Be open to reconsidering your vote.

@DavidBrown , @betsy , @ThylacineAlive , @Coelacanth18 , @TZDugong , @birdsandbats - you’re up.

 

[TheGerenuk]

San Diego is lucky to draw birds here, as I believe this is their strongest strength. St Louis has a few stellar bird exhibits too (notably Penguin and Puffin Coast and the 1904 Flight Cage).

I'm voting 2-1 for San Diego for now.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I haven't been to St. Louis yet (had to drop it out of my 2019 plans) but I've talked about it pretty extensively with @jayjds2, whose opinions I trust and more often than not find fall very similarly to my own. Based on his information, it really sounds like the zoo doesn't have much going for it in the way of birds anymore aside from the fact that they still exhibit Horned Guan. Meanwhile San Diego has probably the largest collection of birds in the country (and certainly one of the largest in the world) and has some truly excellent aviaries. Until convinced otherwise I'll be voting 3-0 in favor of San Diego.

~Thylo

 

[Coelacanth18]

Species Lists

Saint Louis Zoo: Saint Louis Zoo Species List June 2018 [Saint Louis Zoo]

San Diego Zoo: San Diego Zoo Complete Species List [San Diego Zoo]

I will let someone else make the argument for San Diego (and I think there's a good one to be made, I'm just not as familiar with them), but here are my thoughts on Saint Louis:

- They have done extensive conservation work with horned guans, and were the first accredited zoo to hold them and second facility in the nation to breed them in the United States, in 2007 and 2015 respectively. Other bird-related conservation work: helped form Pacific Bird Conservation Project; worked with University of Missouri-St. Louis on an early-warning system to prevent spread of avian disease in the Galapagos; and conducted annual Humboldt penguin censuses in Peru and Chile.

- Some other notable species: buff-crested bustard, Congo peafowl, carmine bee-eater, Guam kingfisher, helmeted curassow, great hornbill, bateleur eagle, white-naped crane, gray-winged trumpeter, Kenyan crested guineafowl, saddle-billed stork, and wattled crane. Their enclosures range from poor (bateleur and great hornbill) to very good (bee-eater and white-naped crane).

- The bulk of their collection lives in the 1920's Bird House, made up mostly of simple exhibits with piano wire separation. I personally really like the Bird House, although I have heard others give different opinions. There is also a 1990's Bird Garden behind the House that is lovely to stroll through, a 1904 Flight Cage housing a cypress swamp full of North American waterbirds, and the signature Penguin & Puffin Coast which is noteworthy for its walk-through feel, proximity to the birds, and detailed immersion techniques (gray polar sky-ceiling, cold temperatures, etc). Besides those, there are waterfowl in the lakes, at least one small aviary in River's Edge, a few storks and cranes in Red Rocks, and there have often been rehab or domestic birds in the Children's Zoo.

Some pictures of relevant buildings/exhibits:

Front of Bird House from @snowleopard (as are the next 7 pics)
1930 Bird House - ZooChat

Foyer and free-flight room in Bird House
1930 Bird House - ZooChat

Interior of Bird House
1930 Bird House - ZooChat

Bee-eater exhibit
1930 Bird House - Mixed-Species Habitat (4 Species) - ZooChat

Rhinoceros hornbill exhibit
1930 Bird House - Rhinoceros Hornbill Exhibit - ZooChat

Cypress Swamp in the 1904 Flight Cage
Cypress Swamp (1904 World's Fair Aviary) - ZooChat

White-naped crane exhibit from @GraysonDP
Bird Garden - ZooChat

Humboldt penguin exhibit from @Baldur (as are the next 2)
Saint Louis Zoo 2010 - Humboldt Penguin exhibit - ZooChat

Inside Penguin & Puffin Coast
Saint Louis Zoo 2010 - General view inside Penguin and Puffin Coast - ZooChat

Inside Penguin & Puffin Coast
Saint Louis Zoo 2010 - Penguin exhibit in Penguin and Puffin Coast - ZooChat

Toco toucan exhibit from @Moebelle
Aug. 2012-Toco Toucan exhibit - ZooChat

Horned guan exhibit from @Coelacanth18
Horned Guan Exhibit - ZooChat

King vulture exhibit from @Coelacanth18
Saint Louis Zoo: Bird House - ZooChat

Personally, I am deciding between whether to vote 2-1 or 3-0 for San Diego, as even with what I have shown here I don't currently think Saint Louis deserves to win this category. If it were ectotherms I could've made a more compelling case, but alas...

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I know people generally praise Penguin and Puffin Coast but from photos it really doesn't look like that good of an exhibit... The Cypress Swamp flight cage does look pretty remarkable, though. It's not quite enough for me to change my vote, though.

~Thylo

 

[Coelacanth18]

I know people generally praise Penguin and Puffin Coast but from photos it really doesn't look like that good of an exhibit...

I couldn't find a picture in the gallery that showed a room in its entirety, but having seen it in person I would say it is. The third photo from Baldur shows a lot (not all) of one side of the penguin room... there is another side of equal size, and the penguins can swim underneath the floor to either side they want (the water is thus sufficiently deep). They have variation in terrain and elevation, and the cliffs on either side are dotted with small nooks for nesting. The penguins are also more active than I generally see them in other zoos/aquariums, and sharing the same airspace as them allows you to hear their raucous calls and smell the salty, bird-laden air.

The puffin room (Baldur's second photo) is similar in design, but is only one side of its room instead of two.

Originally the penguins and puffins would have been an automatic one-up on San Diego, but now that Africa Rocks is open it's a closer match in this category.

 

[snowleopard]

Saint Louis Zoo has the brilliant Penguin & Puffin Coast, the historic Cypress Swamp, another historic structure in the form of the Bird House, plus the nearby Bird Garden set of exhibits. Even with a reduced collection in recent years (especially with waterfowl) the zoo is a very good one for birds.

However, San Diego Zoo is simply spectacular with its two mammoth aviaries known as Scripps and Owens, plus the huge new aviary in Africa Rocks, and then there is the Parker Aviary and 24 Australasian aviaries in one tiny section of the zoo, then the Diving Bird Aviary at Northern Frontier, plus those world-class bird-of-prey aviaries in the same area, and then at least 50 more aviaries that I haven't even mentioned.

I love both of these zoos, but I'm voting 3-0 San Diego.

 

[Moebelle]

I couldn't find a picture in the gallery that showed a room in its entirety,

Jul. 2018 - Penguin & Puffin Coast (Penguin Cove Panorama) - ZooChat

 

[ThylacineAlive]

That's great that the pools are deeper than the photos make them seem and it's cool that they can swim underneath the floor, but aside from that what exactly does Penguin & Puffin Coast have going for it? The enclosures don't look very big at all, appear to have very small land areas, and use that (imo outdated) style of simply giving penguins a mock rock land strip. I'll have to judge for myself if I go someday but from everything I've seen/heard the pool area is all that keeps this from being an otherwise bland exhibit and far from the #1 penguin exhibit in the US.

San Diego's penguin exhibit, while it also doesn't provide an all too exciting land portion, does have a remarkable pool, is larger, and at least gives the birds something other than mock rock to walk on. Then of course there is the fantastic concept of mixing penguins with small sharks. All in all, I'd saw San Diego has the far superior penguin exhibit despite being for only one species.

~Thylo

 

[Chlidonias]

I like the conservation work that Coelacanth18 talked about for Saint Louis, but I'm still going to have to go 3-0 for San Diego based on all the other posts.

 

[Coelacanth18]

@ThylacineAlive Is mock rock really outdated or a problem for penguins though? I don't know enough about their husbandry or natural behavior to say, but putting penguins on all rock seems to make more sense than bears, or even seals (for instance).

The exhibit is not noticeably large, but it doesn't strike me as too small either. And the land area is hard to judge from photos I think, it definitely takes up more space than the pool.

The most novel thing about it is the design, where you have close proximity and a shared environment with the animals. It's best conveyed through actually visiting it, unfortunately, rather than being visually stunning. I know that @jayjds2 visited and came out with a different perspective (to each their own), but myself and others who have seen it in person had a very positive experience.

 

[Chlidonias]

@ThylacineAlive Is mock rock really outdated or a problem for penguins though? I don't know enough about their husbandry or natural behavior to say, but putting penguins on all rock seems to make more sense than bears, or even seals (for instance).

I don't know anything about the enclosure in question, but penguins in captivity are susceptible to bumblefoot which is primarily caused (in penguins) by a combination of longer periods of standing than is natural (as opposed to the relative times spent on land versus water in the wild) plus inappropriate substrate which is usually concrete. Despite the amusing name of the affliction it can easily be lethal.

 

[Coelacanth18]

Thanks for that info @Chlidonias. I'm not sure of the exact substrate either; I'm actually not sure what mock rock is normally made of, let alone the specific type they used in that enclosure. I do know that the material looks the same as what is normally used in other penguin exhibits around the country; I would hope that the majority of facilities are not using inappropriate substrate.

Would anyone be able to provide photos on this thread from San Diego? I would myself but I don't know if I'll have the time to peruse that massive media folder before the match closes.

 

[Mehdi]

I have to agree with @ThylacineAlive here, while I have never been to St. Louis Zoo (nor SDZ for that matter ), from pictures Penguin & Puffin Coast doesn't look that brilliant to be honest, although that may be because I have a strong dislike of mock rock (except when it's well-done which I don't find to be the case here).

Adding to that the bumblefoot issue Chlidonias pointed out, I have to vote 3-0 for San Diego, even though I'm very impressed by the St. Louis' bird house and Cypress Swamp

 

[lintworm]

@ThylacineAlive Is mock rock really outdated or a problem for penguins though? I don't know enough about their husbandry or natural behavior to say, but putting penguins on all rock seems to make more sense than bears, or even seals (for instance).

The exhibit is not noticeably large, but it doesn't strike me as too small either. And the land area is hard to judge from photos I think, it definitely takes up more space than the pool.

The most novel thing about it is the design, where you have close proximity and a shared environment with the animals. It's best conveyed through actually visiting it, unfortunately, rather than being visually stunning. I know that @jayjds2 visited and came out with a different perspective (to each their own), but myself and others who have seen it in person had a very positive experience.

Having seen 8 penguin species in the wild, I can tell you that the vast majority has their actual breeding grounds on soft substrates like sand or grass. The exception of what I have seen was a rockhopper colony with a single Macaroni penguin. But as @Chlidonias said they spent much more time foraging in the wild than in captivity.

 

[TZDugong]

Even though this matchup has turned into a bit of a blowout, with San Diego guaranteed an easy victory, given that I really enjoy writing about San Diego, and the fact that I have a bit of free time on my hands, I’ll give my reasoning as to why I voted 3-0 for San Diego. Perhaps I’ll even convince others to vote that way too!

Anyways, San Diego is very lucky to draw birds as I’d argue this is their strongest area. The collection is obviously fantastic, innumerable amounts of species and some awesome rarities, but what really impressed me was the exhibitory.

There are so many fantastic bird exhibits at the San Diego Zoo, some of them are well known while others are less talked about. The most famous aviaries at the zoo are the three gigantic rainforest aviaries, known as the Scripps, Owens and Parker. The Scripps and Owens are colossal walk-through aviaries, thickly planted and incredibly tall. There are a lot of different species in here, but sometimes it can be hard to see the birds as the aviaries are simply enormous. The Parker aviary, while still large, is quite a bit smaller, but in a way this is an advantage as you can easily spot the many incredible species (the highlights being Andean-Cock-of-the-Rock’s and Toucans), but they still have ample room to roam. The other really popular bird exhibit at the zoo is the recently-built African Penguin exhibit, and this is another great exhibit. The land area is just average, and the above-water viewing is a little clunky, but the underwater viewing area is incredible, the pool is tremendous and a mixed species exhibit with leopard sharks is innovative, making this a crowd-pleasing attraction and my 2nd favourite Penguin exhibit.

While those 4 exhibits take up a lot of the average visitors attention, there are other great bird exhibits scattered around the zoo. The Australian area has a couple of decently-sized, albeit hard to view aviaries, aside from the Penguin exhibit, Africa Rocks has a terrific Bateleur Eagle Aviary and a great walk-through aviary that’s unfortunately sparsely populated. Elsewhere in the zoo, Elephant Odyssey has a large California Condor aviary that’s arguably the highlight of the complex as well as a decent Secretary Bird exhibit; there’s an almost-hidden path with a row of 7-8 really nice pheasant enclosures, with great species like Maleo there, as well as a terrific small walk-through aviary in the Northern Frontier. A walk-through Hummingbird aviary rounds out the memorable bird exhibits at the zoo, although there are undoubtedly some exhibits I’ve forgotten.

Saint Louis looks like a decent zoo for birds, and I like the look of their Cypress Swamp exhibit, but it’s simply no match for San Diego, and I think the Southern Californian zoo deserves an easy 3-0 victory.

 

[d1am0ndback]

The Cypress Swamp is a very impressive aviary however on both of my two visits to the Saint Louis Zoo I found it to be rather dull and dead on the inside. I normally spend a large percentage of my time in zoos in aviaries but this aviary, naturalistic and spacious, simply lacked the number of animals to make it hold my attention for more than 10 minutes.

I think this may be due to the lack of diversity in terms of which species of bird inhabit the space, since almost all of them hang low to the water, leaving much of the large space completely empty. Not to mention many of the birds in there can be found wild right outside the gate or are generally very easy to find in most places in the country wild without going into actual wild areas. I understand the importance of native wildlife collections, even the common species, but in my opinion this is a big waste of space for such a large and immersive space.

I am going 3-0 for San Diego here for now due to the massive difference in bird collection quality and quantity. However, going 2-1 for San Diego was very tempting for me given San Diego does not put a lot of effort into the breeding many of their rare bird species and many of them simply serve as a piece of a collection, while Saint Louis does put effort into breeding programs for birds such as the Horned Guan.

 

[Coelacanth18]

Not to mention many of the birds in there can be found wild right outside the gate or are generally very easy to find in most places in the country wild without going into actual wild areas. I understand the importance of native wildlife collections, even the common species, but in my opinion this is a big waste of space for such a large and immersive space.

I've often wondered about their choice of putting a swamp exhibit in there. It makes sense to use temperate birds so that it is a year-round exhibit, and it makes for a somewhat good immersion, but there could be other uses for it. Maybe divide it up into very large raptor cages?

Edit: I'm also not sure if the Flight Cage is affected at all by a Historic structure status which could limit renovation potential.

 

[d1am0ndback]

I've often wondered about their choice of putting a swamp exhibit in there. It makes sense to use temperate birds so that it is a year-round exhibit, and it makes for a somewhat good immersion, but there could be other uses for it. Maybe divide it up into very large raptor cages?

Edit: I'm also not sure if the Flight Cage is affected at all by a Historic structure status which could limit renovation potential.

I would imagine if they added a lot more birds, particularly native songbirds, to fill all the empty spaces and those which are more difficult to find without going out of your way, which I would imagine they could get from bird rescues like several other zoos do, it could be a lot more immersive like the aviary at Miami which has birds filling all of the space with several water-dwelling, ground-dwelling, and tree-dwelling species.

 

[TheGerenuk]

Final Score:

San Diego Zoo comfortably beats St Louis 61-8