ZooChat Cup Group D2: Cologne vs Plzen

[CGSwans]

And off we go with the second round’s marquee group. The topic? Australia and Islands.

Quick reminder for those that haven’t read it that I shared some thoughts about how to approach the geographic categories here: ZooChat Cup - rebooted

 

[FunkyGibbon]

Hmmm, Plzen's Australian collection is excellent (shocking I know), and there is a whole Madagascar House, but the lemur exhibits are disqualifying imo.
Cologne has tree kangaroo, vontsira, some lemurs themselves and what else?
This feels like a pretty drab 2-1 to Koln.

 

[lintworm]

Cologne actually has quite a lot, not asany species as Plzen but certainly more than average. Mammalwise there are 5 lemur species, Vontsira, 3 Marsupials and Rodriquez fruit bats that come to mind. There is a surprising diversity in the bird department with many ducks, doves as well as parrots, some Malagasy species and (behind the scenes) Birds of Paradise. The reptile section has quite some island and Australian as well as a few Malagasy species, I am just not sure which Monitor lizard occurs where . In terms of freshwater fish a large Australian display comes to mind as well as Malagasy species.

Enclosurewise there is nothing bad, though the Lemur house is ugly, but nowhere as bad as in Plzen. The species are more presented taxonomically but the terraria and aviaries are generally of a high standard.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Fixed the poll categories due to a minor error

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I haven't been to Cologne unfortunately but from the summary @lintworm provided I think I'll be voting for them. Plzen's Australian area is pretty good, though I don't remember it being very substantial. Their Madagascar collection is superb, but that house is pretty badly overstuffed, as is their Madagascar aviary elsewhere in the zoo.

I'd like to hear some of the arguments in favor of Plzen, though, especially since @Hongabonga has voted 3-0 in its favor.

~Thylo

 

[TeaLovingDave]

as is their Madagascar aviary elsewhere in the zoo.

Not to the best of my recollection - seemed like a perfectly good aviary to me on my last visit in October 2019. I'm also inclined to dispute the idea that the entire Madagascar House is bad to the point of disqualification, or overstuffed

A few Plzen-related points no one has remarked on:

1) They have successfully bred several notable oddities, including New Guinea Short-beaked Echidna and Dusky Pademelon - in the case of the latter, I believe most of the European population are either Plzen-bred or descended from Plzen-bred animals.
2) Although CGSwans may rule differently, if the Macaronesian archipelagos of the Atlantic count within the remit of this challenge the handful of greenhouse aviaries and associated informational displays revolving around the Canaries, Azores, Madeira and Cape Verde Islands are a relatively new and excellent addition to the collection.
3) They have one of the best - if not the best - onshow collection of island endemic reptiles and amphibians in Europe, both dotted around the zoo and in the large complex of (good quality) vivaria now present within the rhinoceros house. The latter complex contains the following species (with those taxa that fall geographically outside of the strict remit of this round in italics):

Crested Gecko (Correlophus ciliatus)
Lined Flat-tail Gecko (Uroplatus lineatus)
Standing's Day Gecko (Phelsuma standingi)
Koch's Day Gecko (Phelsuma kochi)
Greater Madagascar Day Gecko (Phelsuma grandis)
Madagascar Day Gecko (Phelsuma madagascariensis madagascariensis)
Yellow-throated Day Gecko (Phelsuma flavigularis)
Speckled Day Gecko (Phelsuma guttata)
Réunion Day Gecko (Phelsuma inexpectata)
Broad-tailed Day Gecko (Phelsuma laticauda)
Lined day Gecko (Phelsuma lineata lineata)
Hielscher's Day Gecko (Phelsuma hielscheri)
Olafian Day Gecko (Phelsuma seippi)
Yellow-headed Day Gecko (Phelsuma klemmeri)
Pemba Island Day Gecko (Phelsuma parkeri)
La Digue Day Gecko (Phelsuma sundbergi ladiguensis)
Island Day Gecko (Phelsuma nigristriata)
Robert Mertens' Day Gecko (Phelsuma robertmertensi)
Andaman Day Gecko (Phelsuma andamanense)
Grandidier's Velvet Gecko (Blaesodactylus sakalava)
Antongil Velvet Gecko (Blaesodactylus antongilensis)
Madagascar Velvet Gecko (Blaesodactylus boivini)
Nosy Bé Ground Gecko (Paroedura oviceps)
Stumpf's Madagascar Ground Gecko (Paroedura stumpffi)
William's Electric Blue Gecko (Lygodactylus williamsi)
Flathead Leaf-toed Gecko (Hemidactylus platycephalus)
Gray`s Leaf-toed Gecko (Hemidactylus mercatorius)
Mourning Gecko (Lepidodactylus lugubris)
Polillo False Gecko (Pseudogekko smaragdinus)
Bauer's Chameleon Gecko (Eurydactylodes agricolae)
Vieillard's Chamaeleon Gecko (Eurydactylodes vieillardi)
-----
Sulawesi Water Skink (Tropidophorus baconi)
Peters' Keeled Cordylid (Tracheloptychus petersi)
Madagascar Keeled Cordylid (Tracheloptychus madagascariensis)
Anzamala Madagascar Swift (Oplurus fierinensis)
Grandidier's Madagascar Swift (Oplurus grandidieri)
Merrem's Madagascar Swift (Oplurus cyclurus)
Three-eyed Lizard (Chalarodon madagascariensis)
Madagascar Girdled Lizard (Zonosaurus madagascariensis)
Karsten's Girdled Lizard (Zonosaurus karsteni)
Green Girdled Lizard (Zonosaurus haraldmeieri)
Ornate Girdled Lizard (Zonosaurus ornatus)
Henderson's Anole (Anolis hendersoni)
Saban Anole (Anolis sabanus)
Black-striped Skink (Brachyseps macrocercus)
Haitian Giant Galliwasp (Celestus warreni)
-----
Betsileo Reed Frog (Heterixalus betsileo)
Blue-back Reed Frog (Heterixalus madagascariensis)
White Spotted Reed Frog (Heterixalus alboguttatus)
Betsileo Madagascar Frog (Mantidactylus betsileanus)
Free Madagascar Frog (Guibemantis liber)
Brown Mantella (Mantella betsileo)
Green Mantella (Mantella viridis)
Blue-legged Mantella (Mantella expectata)
Marbled Madagascan Rainfrog (Scaphiophryne marmorata)

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Not to the best of my recollection - seemed like a perfectly good aviary to me on my last visit in October 2019. I'm also inclined to dispute the idea that the entire Madagascar House is bad to the point of disqualification, or overstuffed

A few Plzen-related points no one has remarked on:

1) They have successfully bred several notable oddities, including New Guinea Short-beaked Echidna and Dusky Pademelon - in the case of the latter, I believe most of the European population are either Plzen-bred or descended from Plzen-bred animals.
2) Although CGSwans may rule differently, if the Macaronesian archipelagos of the Atlantic count within the remit of this challenge the handful of greenhouse aviaries and associated informational displays revolving around the Canaries, Azores, Madeira and Cape Verde Islands are a relatively new and excellent addition to the collection.
3) They have one of the best - if not the best - onshow collection of island endemic reptiles and amphibians in Europe, both dotted around the zoo and in the large complex of (good quality) vivaria now present within the rhinoceros house. The latter complex contains the following species (with those taxa that fall geographically outside of the strict remit of this round in italics):

Crested Gecko (Correlophus ciliatus)
Lined Flat-tail Gecko (Uroplatus lineatus)
Standing's Day Gecko (Phelsuma standingi)
Koch's Day Gecko (Phelsuma kochi)
Greater Madagascar Day Gecko (Phelsuma grandis)
Madagascar Day Gecko (Phelsuma madagascariensis madagascariensis)
Yellow-throated Day Gecko (Phelsuma flavigularis)
Speckled Day Gecko (Phelsuma guttata)
Réunion Day Gecko (Phelsuma inexpectata)
Broad-tailed Day Gecko (Phelsuma laticauda)
Lined day Gecko (Phelsuma lineata lineata)
Hielscher's Day Gecko (Phelsuma hielscheri)
Olafian Day Gecko (Phelsuma seippi)
Yellow-headed Day Gecko (Phelsuma klemmeri)
Pemba Island Day Gecko (Phelsuma parkeri)
La Digue Day Gecko (Phelsuma sundbergi ladiguensis)
Island Day Gecko (Phelsuma nigristriata)
Robert Mertens' Day Gecko (Phelsuma robertmertensi)
Andaman Day Gecko (Phelsuma andamanense)
Grandidier's Velvet Gecko (Blaesodactylus sakalava)
Antongil Velvet Gecko (Blaesodactylus antongilensis)
Madagascar Velvet Gecko (Blaesodactylus boivini)
Nosy Bé Ground Gecko (Paroedura oviceps)
Stumpf's Madagascar Ground Gecko (Paroedura stumpffi)
William's Electric Blue Gecko (Lygodactylus williamsi)
Flathead Leaf-toed Gecko (Hemidactylus platycephalus)
Gray`s Leaf-toed Gecko (Hemidactylus mercatorius)
Mourning Gecko (Lepidodactylus lugubris)
Polillo False Gecko (Pseudogekko smaragdinus)
Bauer's Chameleon Gecko (Eurydactylodes agricolae)
Vieillard's Chamaeleon Gecko (Eurydactylodes vieillardi)
-----
Sulawesi Water Skink (Tropidophorus baconi)
Peters' Keeled Cordylid (Tracheloptychus petersi)
Madagascar Keeled Cordylid (Tracheloptychus madagascariensis)
Anzamala Madagascar Swift (Oplurus fierinensis)
Grandidier's Madagascar Swift (Oplurus grandidieri)
Merrem's Madagascar Swift (Oplurus cyclurus)
Three-eyed Lizard (Chalarodon madagascariensis)
Madagascar Girdled Lizard (Zonosaurus madagascariensis)
Karsten's Girdled Lizard (Zonosaurus karsteni)
Green Girdled Lizard (Zonosaurus haraldmeieri)
Ornate Girdled Lizard (Zonosaurus ornatus)
Henderson's Anole (Anolis hendersoni)
Saban Anole (Anolis sabanus)
Black-striped Skink (Brachyseps macrocercus)
Haitian Giant Galliwasp (Celestus warreni)
-----
Betsileo Reed Frog (Heterixalus betsileo)
Blue-back Reed Frog (Heterixalus madagascariensis)
White Spotted Reed Frog (Heterixalus alboguttatus)
Betsileo Madagascar Frog (Mantidactylus betsileanus)
Free Madagascar Frog (Guibemantis liber)
Brown Mantella (Mantella betsileo)
Green Mantella (Mantella viridis)
Blue-legged Mantella (Mantella expectata)
Marbled Madagascan Rainfrog (Scaphiophryne marmorata)

I meant to mention the excellent rhino house herp displays in my post but they slipped my mind before posting. I think this is the main reason I currently am giving Plzen a lot of credit and I could very easily be persuaded to change my vote but I'd like to hear more on Cologne and their exhibits before I make a decision.

I'm glad to hear the Malagasy aviary seems to have emptied out a bit, as when I visited in September 2018 I found it to be quite overfilled.

~Thylo

 

[TheGerenuk]

2-1 Cologne. Both have impressive lists, but for me, quality usually wins over quantity.

 

[CGSwans]

2) Although CGSwans may rule differently, if the Macaronesian archipelagos of the Atlantic count within the remit of this challenge the handful of greenhouse aviaries and associated informational displays revolving around the Canaries, Azores, Madeira and Cape Verde Islands are a relatively new and excellent addition to the collection.

They are relevant, yes.

 

[Coelacanth18]

Here are some pictures of Plzen's Madagascar house. I couldn't really find any of its Madagascar aviary, herp enclosures in the rhinoceros house, or the new aviaries @TeaLovingDave mentioned - if someone can find those we could get a better perspective.

View of interior

Herp Enclosure

Malagasy Giant Rats

Belted Black-and-White Ruffed Lemurs

White-fronted Lemurs

More lemurs

 

[CGSwans]

H

Herp Enclosure

Naw, bless. This would have been funny had Plzen drawn Zurich for this category.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Here are some pictures of Plzen's Madagascar house. I couldn't really find any of its Madagascar aviary, herp enclosures in the rhinoceros house, or the new aviaries @TeaLovingDave mentioned - if someone can find those we could get a better perspective.

These photographs also omit the outdoor enclosures, and the nocturnal half of the indoor house.

I'll have a looksee through my photographs tomorrow morning to see if I have any worth uploading for the newer exhibits.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

The herp enclosures and nocturnal lemur enclosures are pretty nice imo but it's the tiny and super crowded larger lemur enclosures that are also mixed with vontsira/boky that bother me. Not all of the outdoor lemur enclosures are good either.

~Thylo

 

[lintworm]

These photographs also omit the outdoor enclosures, and the nocturnal half of the indoor house.

I'll have a looksee through my photographs tomorrow morning to see if I have any worth uploading for the newer exhibits.

The outdoor enclosures are worth little as there are less outdoor enclosures than indoor enclosures, so animals are rotated and even in good weather not all outdoor enclosures were in use on my visit. it is even more annoying that this is a recent house so there is no historic reason for the overstocking, just showing post stamp collections are more important than the animals. It is the only place where I have seen lemurs behave stereotypically (as well as the Vontsira). It is alo telling that the worst/ugliest part in Cologne: their Madagascar house offers more than double the space indoors to their lemurs + constant access to outdoor enclosures.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

The outdoor enclosures are worth little as there are less outdoor enclosures than indoor enclosures, so animals are rotated and even in good weather not all outdoor enclosures were in use on my visit. it is even more annoying that this is a recent house so there is no historic reason for the overstocking, just showing post stamp collections are more important than the animals. It is the only place where I have seen lemurs behave stereotypically (as well as the Vontsira). It is alo telling that the worst/ugliest part in Cologne: their Madagascar house offers more than double the space indoors to their lemurs + constant access to outdoor enclosures.

I believe further lemurs are kept behind the scenes in the building as well.

~Thylo

 

[TeaLovingDave]

The outdoor enclosures are worth little as there are less outdoor enclosures than indoor enclosures, so animals are rotated and even in good weather not all outdoor enclosures were in use on my visit.

Oh, they are definitely not great at all, although possibly worth a shade more than @FunkyGibbon and yourself give them credit for - I was merely mentioning them, along with the nocturnal exhibits, to clarify to anyone unfamiliar with Plzen that the photographs posted by Coelacanth didn't show the whole scope of the building. That said, on my visit in early October all outdoor exhibits were indeed in use.

To be honest, this is yet another round where I think the ability to vote for a draw would have been nice as my true feelings are much closer to a tie than the 2-1 dichotomy which the voting structure requires me to go for.

 

[lintworm]

Oh, they are definitely not great at all, although possibly worth a shade more than @FunkyGibbon and yourself give them credit for - I was merely mentioning them, along with the nocturnal exhibits, to clarify to anyone unfamiliar with Plzen that the photographs posted by Coelacanth didn't show the whole scope of the building. That said, on my visit in early October all outdoor exhibits were indeed in use.

To be honest, this is yet another round where I think the ability to vote for a draw would have been nice as my true feelings are much closer to a tie than the 2-1 dichotomy which the voting structure requires me to go for.

I would give the house more credit if it was an ancient remnant that the zoo has yet to deal with effectively. But this house is relatively new so there is no good reason for it to be so crappy.

 

[HOMIN96]

But this house is relatively new

I wouldn't classify nearly 20 years old building as relatively new...especially in this age of rapid technological advancement where everything ages very fast. And even more so in Czech republic, where the EU-membership really speed up the development everywhere.

The nocturnal part of the house feels good to me given the species that are there now. Fruit bats could maybe use more space and bit better furnishing but otherwise it is good.

We'll see what the future holds for the daylight part. I can see some species leaving in the future without replacement and the exhibits being reworked. It will be maybe tied to the future of walkthrough lemur exhibit as both males living there are pretty old now...

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I would give the house more credit if it was an ancient remnant that the zoo has yet to deal with effectively. But this house is relatively new so there is no good reason for it to be so crappy.

I think we're more or less in agreement about the house being bad, we merely differ on the scale of the problem I'm basically trying to establish that it isn't so bad that it automatically means Plzen should not win no matter its strengths elsewhere, as argued above.

The nocturnal part of the house feels good to me given the species that are there now. Fruit bats could maybe use more space and bit better furnishing but otherwise it is good.

I'd be inclined to agree with this point - the rest of the house isn't great, but the nocturnal exhibits are pretty good, and contain three of the biggest oddities in the building (Ganzhorn's and Goodman's Mouse Lemur, and Fat-tailed Dwarf Lemur)

By the by, I've rooted out photographs of the outside enclosures from my October 2019 visit, for the reference of anyone who hasn't visited:

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Now, to deal with the main thrust of my argument: Plzen definitely does have a worse Madagascar House than does Köln- somewhat mitigated, as noted above, by a decent quality nocturnal section - but in other areas of the zoo it contains exhibits falling under the remit of this round of the Zoo Cup which a) are either equal in quality to their counterparts at Köln or better b) contain a wider diversity of species and c) in some cases represent sections of the category which are entirely unrepresented at Köln.

I've already listed the species of island endemic reptile and amphibian displayed within the rhinoceros house; I mostly took photographs of individual species and so forth, but here are a few more large-scale images from the area in question. Broadly speaking the row of vivariums comprised an initial area containing several smaller tanks for hatchlings and juvenile animals, followed by perhaps 15-20 tanks containing various species, with almost all containing multiple taxa and some taxa occurring in multiple tanks. There were also tanks containing fish and invertebrates dotted amongst these - I didn't take detailed notes on all species for these.













Further vivarium exhibits fitting this theme - all pretty high quality - are present in the Succulent House (a largely botanical exhibit based around desert plants) and in the aforementioned Madagascar House.