White lions are always the South African lion subspecies
White tigers are always the Bengal tiger subspecies
Black leopards can be (in the wild) Indochinese, Sri Lankan, African, Indian and Javan, and in captivity can also be Amur or Arabian.
ZooChat Cup Group E: Denver vs Pairi Daiza
- Thread starter CGSwans
- Start date
White lions are always the South African lion subspecies
White tigers are always the Bengal tiger subspecies
Black leopards can be (in the wild) Indochinese, Sri Lankan, African, Indian and Javan, and in captivity can also be Amur or Arabian.
White tigers in captivity are highly inbred Bengal x Siberian hybrids. Most Black leopards are also subspecies hybrids, though a few pure melanistic individuals occur
I never quite understand why people say in defence of Pairi Daiza's bad enclosures that they are no worse than in some other zoos. When the vast majority of the bad enclosures i Pairi Daiza was built in the last five years by a zoo with near endless resources. Even now there are still some lions in the all concrete tiny pit which was built in 2012 for Leopards and later held White tigers because they needed them then... That pit is as brutal as many enclosures in 3rd world countries and far worse than anything Denver has ro offer.
I'm not sure, but I think the main problem with this particular debate and also a few others in the Zoochat cup is that people who go with Denver are not listening to the people supporting Pairi Daiza and vice versa. I think it might be helpful if I set out a list of pros and cons of both zoos that have been mentioned so far, which would allow people to compare them sensibly and offer an evaluation of the pure objective facts. I will try not to be biased although in my mind I am slightly leaning towards Pairi Daiza because of conservation efforts 
After few unanimous, votes of conformity, which unfortunately didn't initiate big debate, we are in the real game. I have been thinking, that NA vs. Europe will decide votes like this, but luckily it is not the case. Omaha - Prague was potentially great debate, but the Ecotherms probably attract less people.
The White Tiger question for me has a simple answer. We either allow the zoos who use this unpopular practice to participate or not. If they are part of the game, everyone has right to interpretation. The ugly truth is the white tigers were initiate part of the Beauval, may be even Singapore success.
When it comes to the Pandas, yes they are Chinese political tool, but Pairi Daiza is not a national zoo, like Copenhagen, Berlin, Moscow or Smithsonian and we talking money more than politics here. We can't just say, that Carnivore collection with Pandas or without Pandas are same thing. Cos the great zoo needs to give joy to (and educate) the kids also, not only to people like us, who have seen 4-5 different zoos with Pandas.
Pairi Daiza are playing in all fronts and that makes it look in the zoo enthusiasts eyes, like Menagerie, but I don't think they are. Cos some of the world's great zoos have great exhibits for some of their inhabitants, but they are very few or may be non, who are perfect from A to Z.
Honestly I am still not convinced, that Denver should win this. Have seen more pro or against Pairi daiza debate, than strong conservation case for Denver. Cos even though, some of its exhibits are way better than Pairi's, don't feel they matching the gap, between the collections.
The White Tiger question for me has a simple answer. We either allow the zoos who use this unpopular practice to participate or not. If they are part of the game, everyone has right to interpretation. The ugly truth is the white tigers were initiate part of the Beauval, may be even Singapore success.
When it comes to the Pandas, yes they are Chinese political tool, but Pairi Daiza is not a national zoo, like Copenhagen, Berlin, Moscow or Smithsonian and we talking money more than politics here. We can't just say, that Carnivore collection with Pandas or without Pandas are same thing. Cos the great zoo needs to give joy to (and educate) the kids also, not only to people like us, who have seen 4-5 different zoos with Pandas.
Pairi Daiza are playing in all fronts and that makes it look in the zoo enthusiasts eyes, like Menagerie, but I don't think they are. Cos some of the world's great zoos have great exhibits for some of their inhabitants, but they are very few or may be non, who are perfect from A to Z.
Honestly I am still not convinced, that Denver should win this. Have seen more pro or against Pairi daiza debate, than strong conservation case for Denver. Cos even though, some of its exhibits are way better than Pairi's, don't feel they matching the gap, between the collections.
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I really don’t think that people not listening to each other is a problem with this debate. There are reasons to support both collections. Pairi has a bigger collection, some great species and some good enclosures. Denver has more consistent exhibitory and a bigger focus on conservation. There’s no problem in terms of listening, it’s just people evaluating these two zoos differently, which is a core component of this competition.I'm not sure, but I think the main problem with this particular debate and also a few others in the Zoochat cup is that people who go with Denver are not listening to the people supporting Pairi Daiza and vice versa. I think it might be helpful if I set out a list of pros and cons of both zoos that have been mentioned so far, which would allow people to compare them sensibly and offer an evaluation of the pure objective facts. I will try not to be biased although in my mind I am slightly leaning towards Pairi Daiza because of conservation efforts
As someone who hasn’t visited either zoo I’d be interested to see a pro and con list, especially for Denver as most of this debate has been centred around Pairi Daiza.
Basing your vote around Pairi because of conservation efforts seems odd as they hold White Tigers and Denver seems to do more in this regard.
I'm not sure, but I think the main problem with this particular debate and also a few others in the Zoochat cup is that people who go with Denver are not listening to the people supporting Pairi Daiza and vice versa. I think it might be helpful if I set out a list of pros and cons of both zoos that have been mentioned so far, which would allow people to compare them sensibly and offer an evaluation of the pure objective facts. I will try not to be biased although in my mind I am slightly leaning towards Pairi Daiza because of conservation efforts
I haven't been to either zoo, though
You say people aren't listening to the pros of Pairi, but so far the "pros" have been that not all of the enclosures are absolutely horrid, and they have a decent species list. You say you are leaning towards Pairi because of conservation, but no one has talked about Pairi's conservation. Everyone changed their votes simply because the zoo has 27 species vs Denver's 14, even though some of Pairi's species are controversial to say the least.
You're comparing zoos that used white tigers as a gimmick in their early days to build up a visitor base to a zoo that already has the fame and finances to survive on their own without them. It seems bizarre to me to argue the "they need them to garner visitation" when this zoo has more elephants than some countries and possibly the largest number of pandas outside of China. Clearly money and popularity are not what's at play here. You're also ignoring the fact that Beauval also has Sumatran Tiger and Singapore also has Malayan, whereas Pairi only has white.
So again, they do already have the money to be doing more, but they're choosing to fall flat husbandry-wise. I personally don't mind pandas in zoos in general, it all depends on the zoo. If Pairi can afford them than they have every right to keep them, but then I don't want to see anyone trying to argue in favor of them from a conservation standpoint or then trying to argue that the zoo is the way it is because of finances/popularity. The presence of all those pandas alone proves that they have the money and resources to be one of Europe's top zoos collection and exhibit-wise but they are choosing not to in favor of their stampbook collection mentality.
I don't think anyone here thinks Pairi is a menagerie, but rather a stampbook collection on steroids (for a modern zoo). When you have a director whose primary goal is to just bring in as many species as possible, that makes the zoo almost by definition a stampbook collection first, then everything else second.
Yes no zoo is perfect, but
Come on, that is absolutely deplorable. There don't seem to be any photos of this on the forum (I wonder why) but if it's as bad as @lintworm makes it sound then it should automatically rob Pairi of any chance of winning. Everyone here seems to want to argue that other zoos aren't perfect, too, so Pairi should get some slack, but you're all ignoring the most important detail: Pairi is still choosing to build these horrible enclosures. You're comparing zoos that are stuck with bad enclosures built 30-50+ years ago to a zoo that built a concrete big cat pit SIX YEARS AGO. Bronx built a better Lion enclosure in the 1940's. There is absolutely no excuse for this, especially if Pairi can afford all those pandas, elephants, and constant influx of new species and exhibits. I'm not saying Pairi is inherently a bad zoo or the people there don't care about the animals, but this is downright neglectful on the zoo's part and really shows me where the zoo's owner's priorities lie. This honestly pushes me towards a 3-0 in favor of Denver, though I'll have to hear about their conservation work before I make that switch.
Would you mind discussing Denver's conservation efforts a bit if you know somewhat about them? I think it'd really benefit the conversation if someone who's been could tell us about what Denver is doing beyond their significantly better husbandry.
~Thylo
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In regards to the conservation I just did some research and here’s what I found.
One of their major conservation projects occur in southern Botswana where they work with African Wild Dogs. They help educate people about the importance of these carnivores in the ecosystem, and have partnered with the Kalahari Research and conservation (KRC).
Other projects include researching Grizzly Bear diets in Yellowstone National Park, helped fund the rescue and rehabilitation of 10 Asian Small-Clawed Otters along with of course breeding many endangered species. I’m sure there’s more but that’s what I found on the website.
One of their major conservation projects occur in southern Botswana where they work with African Wild Dogs. They help educate people about the importance of these carnivores in the ecosystem, and have partnered with the Kalahari Research and conservation (KRC).
Other projects include researching Grizzly Bear diets in Yellowstone National Park, helped fund the rescue and rehabilitation of 10 Asian Small-Clawed Otters along with of course breeding many endangered species. I’m sure there’s more but that’s what I found on the website.
@lintworm and @ThylacineAlive have summed up my feelings pretty well. White tigers take potential space away from breeding animals while pandas are a waste of money and space in general. And I'm not impressed with zoos that don't build decent, let alone great exhibits in the 21st century with the amount of knowledge, research, and resources Pairi had access to.
One of the things I struggle with in these debates is that it seems rare that anyone posts gallery photos of European zoos in the thread, at least compared to American zoos. As a visual person, that makes it harder for me to compare exhibits. In an ideal world we could all go to the gallery and look for ourselves, but the photo collections for these zoos are enormous, specific searches are often unsuccessful or leave things out, and I personally don't have the time to look through 100 pages of photos every time there's a match.
Can anyone verify where Pairi's white tigers came from and if they are actively breeding them?
One of the things I struggle with in these debates is that it seems rare that anyone posts gallery photos of European zoos in the thread, at least compared to American zoos. As a visual person, that makes it harder for me to compare exhibits. In an ideal world we could all go to the gallery and look for ourselves, but the photo collections for these zoos are enormous, specific searches are often unsuccessful or leave things out, and I personally don't have the time to look through 100 pages of photos every time there's a match.
Can anyone verify where Pairi's white tigers came from and if they are actively breeding them?
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I decided "why wait?" immediately after posting so I looked into it myself.
The zoo works with the Kalahari Research & Conservation organization in Kgalagadi Transfrontier Park in southern Botswana to study/conserve African Wild Dogs (and vultures, but that doesn't count here).
They're working to figure out the effects of climate change on the plants most important to Grizzly Bears in Montana.
They're working in Sabah to restore natural rainforests along the fragmented Kinabatangan River in order to preserve habitats for Sunda Clouded Leopards (named as one of the species the project is targeted at) and other species affected by palm oil plantations.
The zoo has worked to set-up rehabilitation facilities in Vietnam to help Asian Small-Clawed Otters poached for the illegal wildlife trade.
There may be more, but that's what I found after a quick search on their website.
~Thylo
Cross posted
Your mentioning of breeding programs reminded me of another point: Denver vs Pairi's breeding for conservation. Transvaal Lions, African Wild Dog, Amur Tiger, Cheetah, Indochinese Clouded Leopard, Fishing Cat, Amur Leopard, and Asian Small-Clawed Otter are all kept by Denver as part of SSP breeding programs. Additionally, their Grizzly Bears, California Sea Lions, Harbor Seals, and possibly North American River Otters will all be rescued rehabilitation animals which could not survive in the wild. This means that 12 out of their 14 carnivore species are kept for conservation purposes.
Meanwhile, you have Pairi Daiza, who seem to have maybe 10 out of their 27 species which are apart of organized endangered species breeding programs. Their European Brown Bears may be rescues as well. I'm not sure if Steller's Sea Lions have a breeding program, but I counted them anyway. I also just noticed that Pairi holds both Eurasian Grey Wolves and non-subspecies Grey Wolves-- why? Is this a mixed pack? Are they rescues? Are they just there for show?
I do not know where they came from and their website states that they are brother and sister, so they are likely not breeding, although with white tigers you never know... Their website does appear to refer to them as actual Bengal Tigers and has this to say about them:
"The Bengal Tiger’s coat is normally orange with black stripes. However, following a genetic mutation (leucism), some of them, very rare in the wild, have a white coat broken with black or brown stripes… and blue eyes! Most white tigers therefore are bred in zoological gardens, where this mutation is being maintained through selected reproduction."
While none of this is inherently untrue, the zoo is claiming that their white tigers are a rare variety and sounds very supportive of captive breeding for the mutation. The page also requests sponsorship donations for their white tigers.
After a bit more consideration, I am switching my vote to 3-0 Denver.
~Thylo
The White tigers do not breed and came from France. The wolves and bears are certainly not rescues.
I could not find a picture of the Cat pit that held Leopard and Tiger in the past and currently has some surplus lions, but there is a picture showing the viewing window:
Leopard enclosure, July 2012 - ZooChat
The pit is about 50 square meters max and concrete and it had the climbing frames removed recently...
I could not find a picture of the Cat pit that held Leopard and Tiger in the past and currently has some surplus lions, but there is a picture showing the viewing window:
Leopard enclosure, July 2012 - ZooChat
The pit is about 50 square meters max and concrete and it had the climbing frames removed recently...
I disagree that Pairi Daiza has the bad husbandry which is mentioned here. Sure, they have the tendency to get animals that they're not ready for, but these animals are not carnivores.
The pit lintworm mentioned, I haven't seen used in three years now (at which time it used to house leopards, which was indeed horrible), and if it is used for lions, I'm guessing this is more a temporary separation enclosure rather than a full-time exhibit.
The Javan leopard enclosure which used to be bland, without climbing structures, has been upgraded and I feel it is now appropriate.
I don't understand why they went for white tigers, and I do agree that this is a negative. The enclosure isn't good either (and in typical Pairi Daiza fashion, is really over-themed). I agree that they can definitely improve on their tiger husbandry.
The majority of the animals in Pairi are housed in OK/good enough enclosures. I'm not saying it couldn't be better, and it's a shame that Pairi doesn't use their money for these animals, but isn't it the same in Denver? The majority of the carnivores there are housed in OK/good enough enclosures.
Then, the newest area houses a few carnivores (brown bear, black bear, puma, wolves, Steller sea lions) all housed in great enclosures.
The carnivores that are housed in great enclosures are, in my opinion, American black bear, binturong, meerkat, European wolf, European brown bear, yellow mongoose, giant panda, Asian black bear, African lion, raccoon-dog, puma, raccoon, harbour seal, Steller sea lion, striped skunk, cheetah, spotted hyena, red panda, Mackenzie Valley wolf, dwarf mongoose, Asian small-clawed otter.
Animals that in a zoo with Pairi's funds should be in better enclosures are Indochinese clouded leopard (should have outdoor enclosure + be able to hide better from guests), Javan leopard (although enclosure is a lot better than in the past, it could still improve a lot), giant otter (enclosure is too small, not enough hiding opportunities), snow leopard (enclosure is kind of small, although it is appropriate imo), South African fur seal (small enclosure), white tiger (lots of concrete, no hiding opportunities, big pool though).
That makes 21 species in good-great enclosures, and 6 species in enclosures that range from appropriate to mediocre (all of which should count as bad enclosures if you take into account the kind of money Pairi has).
According to what has been said about Denver, there's three good-great enclosures there (Predator Ridge + clouded leopards) and the fishing cat enclosure looks quite bad. The rest should be appropriate, but not much more than appropriate.
For me this is honestly a hard vote to decide. Pairi is the better zoo, but at the same time, it also should be much better... I'm going to leave my vote like it is now, but should it turn out that Denver does a significant amount for in-situ conservation, I may switch again.
The pit lintworm mentioned, I haven't seen used in three years now (at which time it used to house leopards, which was indeed horrible), and if it is used for lions, I'm guessing this is more a temporary separation enclosure rather than a full-time exhibit.
The Javan leopard enclosure which used to be bland, without climbing structures, has been upgraded and I feel it is now appropriate.
I don't understand why they went for white tigers, and I do agree that this is a negative. The enclosure isn't good either (and in typical Pairi Daiza fashion, is really over-themed). I agree that they can definitely improve on their tiger husbandry.
The majority of the animals in Pairi are housed in OK/good enough enclosures. I'm not saying it couldn't be better, and it's a shame that Pairi doesn't use their money for these animals, but isn't it the same in Denver? The majority of the carnivores there are housed in OK/good enough enclosures.
Then, the newest area houses a few carnivores (brown bear, black bear, puma, wolves, Steller sea lions) all housed in great enclosures.
The carnivores that are housed in great enclosures are, in my opinion, American black bear, binturong, meerkat, European wolf, European brown bear, yellow mongoose, giant panda, Asian black bear, African lion, raccoon-dog, puma, raccoon, harbour seal, Steller sea lion, striped skunk, cheetah, spotted hyena, red panda, Mackenzie Valley wolf, dwarf mongoose, Asian small-clawed otter.
Animals that in a zoo with Pairi's funds should be in better enclosures are Indochinese clouded leopard (should have outdoor enclosure + be able to hide better from guests), Javan leopard (although enclosure is a lot better than in the past, it could still improve a lot), giant otter (enclosure is too small, not enough hiding opportunities), snow leopard (enclosure is kind of small, although it is appropriate imo), South African fur seal (small enclosure), white tiger (lots of concrete, no hiding opportunities, big pool though).
That makes 21 species in good-great enclosures, and 6 species in enclosures that range from appropriate to mediocre (all of which should count as bad enclosures if you take into account the kind of money Pairi has).
According to what has been said about Denver, there's three good-great enclosures there (Predator Ridge + clouded leopards) and the fishing cat enclosure looks quite bad. The rest should be appropriate, but not much more than appropriate.
For me this is honestly a hard vote to decide. Pairi is the better zoo, but at the same time, it also should be much better... I'm going to leave my vote like it is now, but should it turn out that Denver does a significant amount for in-situ conservation, I may switch again.
Me and Thylo have both made posts about the in-situ conservation Denver does. Denver does some really fantastic in-situ work, with carnivores, African Wild Dogs and Asian Otters in particular. I’d give Denver the clear advantage in terms of conservation.
I haven't been to either zoo, though
You say people aren't listening to the pros of Pairi, but so far the "pros" have been that not all of the enclosures are absolutely horrid, and they have a decent species list. You say you are leaning towards Pairi because of conservation, but no one has talked about Pairi's conservation. Everyone changed their votes simply because the zoo has 27 species vs Denver's 14, even though some of Pairi's species are controversial to say the least.
You're comparing zoos that used white tigers as a gimmick in their early days to build up a visitor base to a zoo that already has the fame and finances to survive on their own without them. It seems bizarre to me to argue the "they need them to garner visitation" when this zoo has more elephants than some countries and possibly the largest number of pandas outside of China. Clearly money and popularity are not what's at play here. You're also ignoring the fact that Beauval also has Sumatran Tiger and Singapore also has Malayan, whereas Pairi only has white.
So again, they do already have the money to be doing more, but they're choosing to fall flat husbandry-wise. I personally don't mind pandas in zoos in general, it all depends on the zoo. If Pairi can afford them than they have every right to keep them, but then I don't want to see anyone trying to argue in favor of them from a conservation standpoint or then trying to argue that the zoo is the way it is because of finances/popularity. The presence of all those pandas alone proves that they have the money and resources to be one of Europe's top zoos collection and exhibit-wise but they are choosing not to in favor of their stampbook collection mentality.
I don't think anyone here thinks Pairi is a menagerie, but rather a stampbook collection on steroids (for a modern zoo). When you have a director whose primary goal is to just bring in as many species as possible, that makes the zoo almost by definition a stampbook collection first, then everything else second.
~Thylo
As a understand correctly You think, that Pairi Daiza do not need the white tigers to attract the crowds, like the other zoos in question, which I agree with. My point was mostly, that they should not lose only, because they hold white tigers, exactly because they are secondary attraction. Hope that they are more rudiment part of the zoo and the Siberian tigers plans are reality.
I did not mention conservation benefits out of holding the Pandas, even though they breed them. Realizing that the pandas cost is way too huge, not only in PD context, but as a whole in conservation world .Just meant, that since they already have them, we can not scratch them out of the species list, simply because they are interesting and rare carnivores and have, if not the great, descent enclosure. And yes, PD have resources, but are greedy and prioritizing the quantity over quality, that is why I suggested that may be they look like "Menagerie", but stampbook collection, sounds much more correct.
Yet, I feel that the PD take good care of its inhabitants and they are in not so horrible conditions, that tried to be described.
This is 1:11 h Denver zoo clip from 2017 in You Tube, which unfortunately does not show all the habitats, but part of the lions, part of the hyenas, snow leopard, red panda, serval, mongoose, former polar bear, sea lions and cheetah enclosures.
If someone is interested can have a look:
FunkyGibbon
Well-Known Member
Images of The New Frontier, Pairi's jewl in the crown as far as carnivores are concerned:
Brown and black bears
Stellar's sealion
Puma
Unfortunately there is no photo of the brown bear and wolf exhibit, which is huge and exquisite, but this photo does show the perimeter.
Brown and black bears
Stellar's sealion
Puma
Unfortunately there is no photo of the brown bear and wolf exhibit, which is huge and exquisite, but this photo does show the perimeter.
Weird, I visited in July as well and couldn't spot anything there. A pity they still use the enclosure.
In September it was also used.
How can you say that when several carnivores are kept in inadequate housing and especially when that concrete cat "enclosure" exists? It also can't exactly be temporary if it's constantly holding new animals, just of different species. Regardless, it's horrible and the fact that it was built within the last decade is inexcusable. The tendency to get animals they're not ready for does imply bad husbandry practices as well.
Ignoring the fact that I personally think the term "good-enough" is being used very loosely in Pairi's favor here, it's not the same for Denver. Judging from the photos provided and the video @twilighter provided, the only carnivore enclosures at Denver that aren't good are the Snow Leopard and Fishing Cat enclosures. They no longer keep Servals or Polar Bears, and from what I can tell the Grizzly Bears have or are in the process of getting a huge brand new habitat. The Red Pandas also have an outdoor enclosure not shown in the video. That's only 2/14 of Denver's species that don't have good to great enclosures vs the 6/27 based on your own observations. Percentage-wise there are more carnivores without good enclosures at Pairi than there are at Denver. When you then include the concrete pen, that total then increases.
Based on what's been shown thus far (with thanks to @FunkyGibbon for providing new photos), five of Pairi's carnivores have great enclosure. I'm sure the number is a bit higher than that, though. From a quick search, the hyenas seem to have a pretty good enclosure, though I will be discounting the Lions seeing as they are also kept in that awful concrete pen. Going back to the bear enclosure, though, hasn't it been stated many times both on and off this forum that housing bears and wolves together is often problematic for one, if not both species? If I'm remembering that correctly, any points they've gained back for those enclosures has just been lost again due to the husbandry.
See me and @TZDugong's posts.
To be clear, I think they lose points because they act as though white tigers are a rare animal and feed into the captive breeding of them on their website, as well as choosing to keep and exhibit them in inadequate housing as opposed to working with actually endangered tigers or even providing them with a good enclosure. There are circumstances where I find keeping white tigers to be acceptable. Hamerton's use, for instance, as well as places like Boston's Franklin Park Zoo which houses rescued animals but has a lot of signage talking about why breeding them is bad.
They shouldn't be scratched off the list, no, but my point is that them having them only makes the issues with the zoo more obvious. Additionally, I'm saying that the zoo having them does not hold as much weight as Denver having proper captive breeding programs for more endangered species.
Thanks for this! I skimmed through it and made updated notes above.
~Thylo
Would someone be able to clarify when this match closes? I have never been clear about what time zone is indicated on this site's timestamps, as they don't conform to my own time zone.