ZooChat Cup Group F: Antwerp vs Bronx

Antwerp vs Bronx - primates

  • Total voters
    34
  • Poll closed .
C

CGSwans

Well-Known Member
15+ year member
The topic? Primates. Sole Eastern gorilla in captivity vs Congo Gorilla Forest. This is the sort of dilemma this game is made for.

The rules:
  • You have three votes to award. If you think it's a tight match, award 2 votes to the stronger zoo and 1 to the weaker one. But if you think it's a wider margin than that, award all 3 votes to the winner.
  • Your criteria for how you make your decision is entirely up to you, *except* that you must stay only within the given category. That includes ignoring the results of the other match: no strategic voting.
  • All votes are public, and all votes can be changed. The purpose of the game is to provoke debate, so make your case for why people should vote the same way as you do. Be open to reconsidering your vote.
Tags - will figure that out tomorrow. It’s been a long day.
 
Antwerp (based on ztl):
Ring-Tailed Lemur
Red Ruffed Lemur
Northern Dry Zone Slender Loris
Colombian Black Spider Monkey
Three-Striped Night-Monkey
Goeldi's Monkey
Geoffroy's Marmoset
Golden-Headed Lion Tamarin
Pygmy Marmoset
Bolivian Squirrel Monkey
Hamlyn's Monkey
Mandrill
Non-subspecific Mantled Colobus
Javan Langur
Eastern Lowland Gorilla
Western Lowland Gorilla
Central African Chimpanzee
East African Chimpanzee
Non-subspecific Common Chimpanzee

Bronx:
Grey Mouse Lemur
Ring-Tailed Lemur
Collared Lemur
Crowned Lemur
Red Ruffed Lemur
Coquerel's Sifaka
Pygmy Slow Loris
Mohol Bushbaby
Pygmy Marmoset
Pied Tamarin
Cotton-Top Tamarin
Golden-Headed Lion Tamarin
Golden Lion Tamarin
Common Squirrel Monkey
White-Throated Capuchin
White-Faced Saki
Bolivian Grey Titi
De Brazza's Monkey
Wolf's Guenon
Mandrill
Gelada
Peters' Angolan Colobus
Javan Langur
Silvered Leaf Monkey
Northern White-Cheeked Gibbon
Western Lowland Gorilla

So that's Antwerp with 19 taxa vs Bronx with 26.

I'm not very familiar with Antwerp so I'm sure someone more knowledgeable can elaborate/correct me but as far as I can tell, while the zoo certainly has some very choice species, the night-monkey, non-sub colobus, most chimps, and of course the gorilla will all be phase-outs moving forward. Of course I don't know for sure, but the mix of three types of chimps suggests that the zoo isn't really focusing on a strict breeding program for the species and therefore will be phasing at least two of them out long-term. Also what is the zoo's exhibitry like? Based on comments I've read recently on the forum I understand the zoo has a rather outdated monkey house?

Meanwhile, the only species I think Bronx plans to phase-out will be De Brazza's Monkey (iirc only one individual off-show since their mix with RRH and Mandrill didn't work out; this is not an AZA phase-out) and Javan Langur (only three old individuals left; I think only one other US zoos keeps them). Meanwhile, all of their other species are part of captive breeding programs. As far as rarities go, Bronx is one of only three US zoos focusing on keeping the mouse lemur, one of only a handful of US zoos breeding Silvered Leaf Monkey, and the reason Geladas are still present in the US. On top of importing new genetics for the Gelada population from Europe, Bronx has also brought in bushbabies from Europe as well. Of course, the zoo no longer has their Monkey House, meaning a few of the New World species live entirely off-show and all bar the Pygmy Marmoset and maybe capuchins are off-show during the winter months. On the other hand, though, Congo Gorilla forest features one of the best gorilla habitats in the world along with one of the best Mandrill enclosures in the country. Baboon Reserve is also fantastic, and while the langur habitats in JungleWorld aren't the best out there, the gibbon set-up is superb. Madagascar!, despite featuring indoor enclosures, still gives the animals plenty of room to roam in habitats designed after each species' specific ecosystem within Madagascar as well as plenty of vertical space to climb.

For now, I'll 2-1 in favor of Bronx but I may be changing that depending on what evidence others can bring to the table.

~Thylo
 
Primates are definately not the strong suit of Antwerpen. The monkey house is indeed somewhat outdated, but it has to be said it is gradually being emptied of the larger species. For the S-American species it is of a comparable level to many other zoos, not great, but not bad either. The Hamlyn monkeys are a rarity in Europe and Antwerp is one of the few to actually breed them. Still the remaining species have no outdoor access, but many of the primates in the Bronx also haven't.

The new Ape accomodation is pretty good, there are a lot of different compartments and also in bad weather there is a very complex environment to be explored. I find only the Gorilla outdoor enclosure disappointing, being very open and with public viewing from multiple sites.

The Squirrel monkeys share an enclosure with Spectacled bears, in terms of space it is fantastic for the monkeys and there do not seem to be any conflicts with their big neighbours.

The Slender loris and Night monkeys live in one of the best night houses, enclosurewise. But unfortunately it will close soon. I think both species are being relocated to the monkey house though.

For now I am going 2-1 for Bronx, but open to persuasion...
 
I do want to point out that most of the primates Bronx keeps indoors do still have access to natural sunlight via glass roofs on their enclosures. The exceptions off the top of my head are the Pygmy Marmosets-- I think-- and the nocturnal species. The other South American species are exhibited outdoors during the warmer months (and the capuchins at least are year round).

~Thylo
 
Bronx Zoo's Congo Gorilla Forest is arguably one of the greatest zoo exhibits ever built, with 6.5 acres (2.6 hectares) of space and at least 20 Lowland Gorillas. Due to the separate admission fee, all profits go towards conservation and more than $10 million was donated to conservation funds in the first decade after the exhibit opened. The fairly new Great Ape exhibits in Antwerp are decent, but not even comparable to what is found in the Bronx.

Both zoos have a large number of primates in all-indoor exhibits, with Bronx having better habitats and Antwerp Zoo's Monkey House is just about the worst thing in the entire park. Having toured Antwerp last month, I was genuinely shocked at seeing such a poor structure and for many visitors it is one of the first things seen in the zoo and thus a poor impression is created.

For now I'm finding it difficult to go with anything but 3-0 for the Bronx Zoo. That NYC facility has more species, in far superior exhibits, to Antwerp, which really does not shine when it comes to primates.
 
ThylacineAlive said:
I do want to point out that most of the primates Bronx keeps indoors do still have access to natural sunlight via glass roofs on their enclosures..
Click to expand...
The same is true about Antwerp, except for the nocturnal ones ;)

I'm going to post a few better details later when I have a bit more time, for now I'll refrain from voting.
I will already say, though, that in my opinion the ape complex in Antwerp is one of the best enclosures of its type I've seen for the animals themselves - the combination of many broken sight lines in both species' outdoor exhibits, and the large amounts of indoor and semi-indoor rooms allows the apes to really shine and show their group structure well, allowing them to really be wherever and with which other animals they want to be. The chimpanzees are all elderly and thus non-breeding, and I believe the plan is to keep a second group of gorillas when they eventually all pass but that's all still fairly long-term and likely to change.
 
I agree that primates are not Antwerps strong suit, and I'm not sure how I'll vote yet, but I'm going to try and make the case for Antwerp here.

First, obviously the Congo Gorilla Forest at Bronx is miles beyond anything Antwerp has, there's really no question here.

However, I do believe that Antwerp does have a chance in this match.

Let's start with the main, and best primate exhibit in Antwerp: Valley of the Great Apes
This primate complex started in 1957 with small outdoor yards, and then an even smaller offshow area. Then in 1989 the moats were filled, significantly enlarging the enclosures, and the entire outdoor yards were covered. This lead to an all-indoor situation that existed until 2018, when the current outdoor aviaries were added. This addition almost doubled the amount of available space for both the chimpanzees and the gorillas.
At this moment, the zoo is home to 5.1 chimpanzees (between 41 and 27 years old, so quite an old group) and a breeding group of 1.4 gorillas. I also expect that the chimps are a phase-out and that Antwerp will move its focus completely to gorillas.
I think that this complex is definitely world-class, and while it can't compete with the Congo Gorilla Forest on looks or size, the gorillas and chimps in Antwerp have a great enclosure that is perfectly suited for their needs. That's pretty admirable, considering that most of the building was constructed in 1957.

The second area is the small monkey house, which is not nearly as good as any of the recent renovations/expansions, but that's mostly because it was constructed in 1978. I'll admit that it looks horrible, but I think that these enclosures are mostly adequate, with plenty of branches and ropes, as well as multiple connected enclosures for the larger monkeys. When I visited today there were 11 species in 12 enclosures. From these 12 enclosures, the only ones that I think are inadequate are the ones for the guereza, and the one for the Hamlyn's monkeys. These two species each have 2 connected enclosures, but the total useable area is quite small.
The monkeys all breed quite well, with a Hamlyn's monkey born in 2017, a guereza in 2018, and a spider monkey only 2 weeks ago.
All in all, I think the small monkey house is adequate, but it needs an update. Not desperately, but it's needed.

Finally there's two more species of primate in Antwerp: the Humboldt's night monkey and the Bolivian squirrel monkeys. The night monkey is almost certainly a phase-out as I haven't seen more than one for a while now, but its enclosure is good if not great, and it is definitely a cool animal to see. The squirrel monkeys have access to one of the two Andean bear enclosures, and this is also a very nice combined species-enclosure.

Something else that is important to mention is the Centre for Research and Conservation (CRC), the research division of the Royal Zoological Society of Antwerp. This organistaion is one of the foremost primatology authorities in Europe. It also set up two primate-related conservation projects, namely Projet Grands Singes and BioBrasil. The former aims to protect great apes in Cameroon. The latter researches genetics in golden-headed lion tamarins and works with local communities to improve awareness of the environment, thus aiding the survival of the tamarins in the wild.

As a conclusion I think it's fair to say that the primate collection at Antwerp is impressive for a zoo its size, and the enclosures range from okay-ish to great, with nothing that's truly awful. There's some work to be done, but over the past decade the zoo has shown that it can capably renovate so that zoonerds and regular visitors alike will enjoy the zoo. Add to that the not-unimportant research the CRC does, and I think it's quite hard to not even give Antwerp 1 point here.

EDIT: Something I forgot to mention are the slow lorises in the Nocturama. Antwerp breeds these quite often (I might be wrong, but I think 2 babies were born this year alone), and their enclosures are good as well.
 
Last edited:
Having visited both zoos, I can give one unbiased opinion.

As previously mentioned, Antwerp has plenty of primate species, but many aren't in the best enclosures. However, they have a wild card in the form of the only eastern gorilla in captivity.

Bronx has managed to create spectacular primate habitats with even more taxa than Antwerp. When I visited, I didn't see one enclosure that was downright horrible. Most are average to good, Baboon Reserve is great, but Congo Gorilla Forest has downright the best gorilla exhibit I have seen.

I've voted 3-0 Bronx or these reasons. Antwerp is decent in primates, but Bronx is way better.
 
I'm really struggling to figure out why anyone would give a single vote to Antwerp, as I see this particular 'battle' as a straight-forward landslide of 3-0 to Bronx Zoo. I suspect that the presence of a single Eastern Lowland Gorilla is maybe persuading a few people to vote 2-1 Bronx, but any votes for Antwerp is clearly questionable in my honest opinion. How can a single ape have so much influence?

Bronx has more primate species than Antwerp and so wins for quantity, including at least 20 Lowland Gorillas.

Bronx has one of the world's greatest Gorilla exhibits, bar none. Now 20 years old, Congo Gorilla Forest is incredible and even for those zoo nerds that haven't been to the Bronx, then check out photos online. The Gelada exhibit (Baboon Reserve) is sublime, and while the all-indoor gibbon and lemur enclosures are not ideal because there is no access to the outside, nevertheless they are probably amidst the very best all-indoor zoo habitats for primates anywhere on the planet. Bronx destroys Antwerp in terms of quality of the primate exhibits.

Bronx's conservation program is arguably the best in the world, with Congo Gorilla Forest alone raising a million dollars per year. It's well known that the Bronx Zoo is more than likely the #1 best zoo in the world in terms of conservation and a large chunk of money comes directly from its top-notch, premier primate habitat.

This particular draw has one of the greatest primate exhibits ever built, plus another 25 primate species in decent enclosures, all at the Bronx Zoo, against what is just about the worst part of Antwerp Zoo. The Monkey House there is, at best, adequate, but I just visited last month and I think that the building needs a dramatic overhaul. Unless you are a tamarin or a marmoset, that is a terrible building in terms of exhibit quality and we all know it's badly outdated.

3-0 Bronx is the appropriate scoreline, even though I've enjoyed reading the opinions of others on this thread. I think that 2-1 Antwerp is totally bonkers, and even 2-1 Bronx is not even close to being correct.
 
This is a textbook 2-1 win for the Bronx here.

Bronx is obviously very strong when it comes to Primates and how they’re exhibited. The Gorilla exhibit gets most of the attention- which it deserves, as it is a terrific exhibit- but some of the other primate exhibits are great as well. The Gelada exhibit is incredible, Madagascar! has 6 different types of lemurs, which despite being in all-indoor enclosures still have good exhibits, the Mandrill and Wolf’s Guenon mixed species exhibit is excellent with outstanding viewing areas, but my favourite primate exhibit at the whole zoo is the Northern White-Cheeked Gibbon exhibit , which is simply stunning.

The other primate exhibits at the Bronx are fairly unremarkable, not bad but not great either, although their are some nice species like Grey Mouse Lemur and Mohol Bushbaby. The only primate exhibit that struck me as bad was the Pygmy Slow Loris exhibit, which is small even for a tiny primate.

Antwerp can’t really compete with the Bronx in terms of exhibit quality, but they have some really nice rarities and from what I’ve read, some nice enclosures as well. Bronx definitely deserves the win but Antwerp still deserves a point in my opinion.
 
I am 'only' voting 2-1 to Bronx because of Antwerp's ape complex. Not because of an eastern gorilla, but because its one of the best I've seen. Having those liminal, covered spaces inbetween indoors and outdoors is great for apes. The 'true' outdoor exhibits are so complex, and aesthetically pleasing for visitors as well. And what really sets it all off is the signage, which I thought was really fantastic.
I appreciate that CGF is better in the eyes of many that have visited both, and Bronx deserves to win this overall. I thought Antwerp's Monkey House was pretty poor. The fact that no-one is making a proper case for Bronx on these grounds seems indicative of a sentiment running slightly below the surface of this thread, which is that actually Bronx's poorer exhibits are also not really up to scratch.
 
I hear a lot of praise for the all-indoor lemur accomodation in the Bronx. But from what I have heard, the habitats are not very big and the lemurs only have access to them during opening hours to not damage the vegetation to much, being for the rest confined to smaller backstage accomodation. Maybe someone who has visited can comment on that, but I have a pet peeve against such newish enclosures that fail spectacularly on welfare grounds.
 
Bronx is clearly going to win this one. I'm just adding to it... :D

Based on what is in this thread, I'm going 2-1 for Bronx.
 
lintworm said:
I hear a lot of praise for the all-indoor lemur accomodation in the Bronx. But from what I have heard, the habitats are not very big and the lemurs only have access to them during opening hours to not damage the vegetation to much, being for the rest confined to smaller backstage accomodation. Maybe someone who has visited can comment on that, but I have a pet peeve against such newish enclosures that fail spectacularly on welfare grounds.
Click to expand...
I'd say the all-indoor enclosures for all 4 large lemur species and Wolf's mona monkeys are indeed not much better, if at all, than Antwerp's small primate house... Similar size, similar layout, with perhaps slightly better decorations, but those decorations do indeed mean that the lemurs can't be in their exhibit for the entire time (which is further reinforced by having the sifakas and crowned lemurs rotating in an already fairly small enclosure, meaning one of those species is also presumably in smaller backstage accomodation half of the time).
The nocturnal enclosures for pygmy slow loris, the bushbabies and the mouse lemurs are all far worse and a lot smaller than those in Antwerp for slender loris and night monkey.
 
Last edited:
I can't really comment about whether the lemurs have 24 hour access to their enclosures or not as I do not know (I just wanted to address that so it doesn't seem like I'm avoiding it) but do we know how large the off-show space is? Only about half of the building is dedicated to the public/exhibit side. There is an event hall in the unused portion, but there's still a lot of bts space. I would imagine the building also has a basement used for holding just like the Monkey House did and still does (they keep some bts species down there). I do think it's a little unfair to criticize Bronx's bts space for their animals when we don't know what space they have.. As for the indoor habitats, I find the Ring-Tailed Lemur/Collared Lemur, Red Ruffed Lemur, and Wolf's Guenon habitats to all be perfectly fine and even larger than some of the outdoor enclosures I've seen for them. They are certainly taller than most primate enclosures as well and I've seen the ruffed lemurs and sifakas up on the rafters at the top of the building. If Antwerp's are indeed on a similar level, I wouldn't exactly call those awful either. The sifaka enclosure is narrow but also very tall, stretching both well below and above the viewing area. The mouse lemur enclosure is small. They used to be kept in the slightly larger boa enclosure and I really don't know why they moved them. By far the worse primate enclosure at the zoo is the capuchin one. They're exhibited in one of the old cages at the back of the old Monkey House. I'm not one to think a cage is inherently bad, but this one is rather bland and unnatural. I do hope it is improved in the near future.

I will be keeping my 2-1 vote in favor of Bronx due to these few shortcomings and because I do want to give credit to Antwerp for what they do well.

~Thylo
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top