With respect, the mongoose really shouldn't be counted as on show given previous rulings! I would also argue that breeding Scottish Wildcat is not unique to Chester! Plenty of zoos do it onshow!
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Zoochat Cup Group H: Chester vs Prague
- Thread starter CGSwans
- Start date
With respect, the mongoose really shouldn't be counted as on show given previous rulings! I would also argue that breeding Scottish Wildcat is not unique to Chester! Plenty of zoos do it onshow!
Putting aside the fact that if you are indeed only judging the exhibits from the photographs you have seen, and therefore acknowledge that the photograph doesn't allow you to see the exhibit, then you have zero grounds for saying it is "large and spacious"......
@FunkyGibbon is correct - the Amur Tiger exhibit is pretty average in size, perhaps being a shade larger than the outdoor exhibit for the Malayan Tigers but only marginally so.
Yes, this is the crux of the matter - Chester may have fewer enclosures overall, but it has a much better "batting average" in terms of excellent enclosures.
As I will hopefully demonstrate in my next posts, I would suggest that the majority of the carnivore exhibits at Chester are in the top 3 exhibits for the species in question which I have seen - and in the case of a good few, they are THE best I have seen.
I've voted 2.1 to Prague. Though the Javan leopard and polar bear enclosures are seriously under par, the rest of Prague's carnivores just excite me more. Chester's exhibit standard is on average higher, and the best 5 exhibits between the two zoos are probably made up of 3-4 exhibits in Chester, but I'd rather go to Prague to see carnivores than Chester.
Though Chester's off show species certainly count in this, they just don't carry the weight that on show species do. Were they on display then this would be even closer.
Though Chester's off show species certainly count in this, they just don't carry the weight that on show species do. Were they on display then this would be even closer.
Not sure what is being implied here?! I think most of my arguments have been reasoned and justified?! I have repeatedly said Chester is a great zoo, no match for Prague on carnivores! What is unreasonable about that? My opinion! But I'm sure Chester will win for obvious reasons.....
I will retire from the debate and let someone else take up Prague's justified case for a win!
1) Fixed your quote for you
2) You misinterpret my point with regards to the mongoose - my point is that their exhibit is already visible and therefore has a bearing on the matter of the exhibit quality for carnivores at Chester.
3) Funnily enough, the only other collections which breed Scottish Wildcat for the specific purpose of re-release also keep their breeding facilities offshow for precisely the reason Chester do - to prevent the animals becoming humanised. To highlight a similar example, it would be churlish to react to the extensive offshow breeding facilities at HWP for Amur Leopard by saying "what's so special about that - other places manage to breed them without keeping them offshow!"
Your argument is valid, but is making it four separate times in the space of an hour - in a tone that clearly implies that you think other perspectives are fundamentally unreasonable - really a way in which you expect to convince others?
In my opinion yes, because the hammering on species beats any other argument IMO . My choice and I thought we were allowed to set our own guidelines as long as we stuck to the category?! I have nothing against Chester either so my views are based on total neutrality.....
Agreed, I have no issues with that?!
No image of the polar bear exhibit has been posted yet.
So, an exhibit by exhibit breakdown of Chester's carnivore offerings, possibly split across multiple posts depending on photo attachment limits:
African Wild Dog
This is the largest and best exhibit I have seen for this species, comprising two large paddocks - each larger than most African Wild Dog exhibits which one can see elsewhere in Europe - along with both onshow dens within a central viewing area and offshow dens on the outer perimeter of the exhibit complex, and (I believe) further hidden dens within the exhibit itself.
Asian Small-clawed Otter
I am not entirely sure if there are still ASCO mixed with the orangutans and Lar Gibbons in the exterior exhibits of Realm of the Red Ape, so I will focus on the other mixed exhibit containing the species, which is also found outside ROTRA - this exhibit contains both ASCO and some of the many, many babirusa held at the collection, and would be among the best enclosures around for either species in my opinion; as a mixed exhibit it is excellent.
Asiatic Lion
This exhibit, being the newest, is perhaps a little more shabby-looking than it will appear given time for the vegetation to "grow in" and the dulling of some of the harsher edges inherent in a new build which hasn't had a chance to settle - especially given the fact that thus far the only photographs available have been taken in the current wet and dismal autumn. This said, I think it has a LOT of potential and already provides a lot more space than *any* of the big cat enclosures at Prague do.
Bush Dog
This exhibit is again one of the best I have seen for the species - if not the best - and provides a large amount of space for the sizable and regularly-breeding pack of dogs which is resident within; there are indoor dens, open areas of grass and more densely wooded/vegetated areas, along with a decent-sized pool which the dogs can regularly be seen swimming in. Moreover, large portions of the exhibit are pockmarked with burrows and dens which have been excavated by the dogs themselves, along with other artificial pipes and burrows. Frustratingly only the more open portion of the exhibit has been photographed within the gallery; I'd estimate that this photo shows perhaps one-third of the whole:
Dwarf Mongoose
One of the more "prosaic" carnivore exhibits at the collection, this is nonetheless a pretty good enclosure and perhaps on the larger-than-average side for the species held within. Again, not too many photographs in the gallery of this one.
African Wild Dog
This is the largest and best exhibit I have seen for this species, comprising two large paddocks - each larger than most African Wild Dog exhibits which one can see elsewhere in Europe - along with both onshow dens within a central viewing area and offshow dens on the outer perimeter of the exhibit complex, and (I believe) further hidden dens within the exhibit itself.
Asian Small-clawed Otter
I am not entirely sure if there are still ASCO mixed with the orangutans and Lar Gibbons in the exterior exhibits of Realm of the Red Ape, so I will focus on the other mixed exhibit containing the species, which is also found outside ROTRA - this exhibit contains both ASCO and some of the many, many babirusa held at the collection, and would be among the best enclosures around for either species in my opinion; as a mixed exhibit it is excellent.
Asiatic Lion
This exhibit, being the newest, is perhaps a little more shabby-looking than it will appear given time for the vegetation to "grow in" and the dulling of some of the harsher edges inherent in a new build which hasn't had a chance to settle - especially given the fact that thus far the only photographs available have been taken in the current wet and dismal autumn. This said, I think it has a LOT of potential and already provides a lot more space than *any* of the big cat enclosures at Prague do.
Bush Dog
This exhibit is again one of the best I have seen for the species - if not the best - and provides a large amount of space for the sizable and regularly-breeding pack of dogs which is resident within; there are indoor dens, open areas of grass and more densely wooded/vegetated areas, along with a decent-sized pool which the dogs can regularly be seen swimming in. Moreover, large portions of the exhibit are pockmarked with burrows and dens which have been excavated by the dogs themselves, along with other artificial pipes and burrows. Frustratingly only the more open portion of the exhibit has been photographed within the gallery; I'd estimate that this photo shows perhaps one-third of the whole:
Dwarf Mongoose
One of the more "prosaic" carnivore exhibits at the collection, this is nonetheless a pretty good enclosure and perhaps on the larger-than-average side for the species held within. Again, not too many photographs in the gallery of this one.
Fossa
One of the definite carnivore gems at Chester - the exhibit for this species is without a doubt far bigger than any other I have seen, unsurprisingly when one considers that it encompasses much of the footplan of the former exhibit for Sumatran Tigers and/or Sun Bears, which provided plenty of space for the species in question. Unfortunately, this is another one which has thus-far gone relatively unrecorded in the gallery; I'd estimate this photo shows about half of the exhibit, with the (onshow) indoor exhibit visible at the rear left:
Giant Otter
And *this* is one of the two biggest gems at Chester, in terms of exhibit size and quality. It is without a shadow of a doubt the best exhibit for Giant Otters I have seen, with a massive and lushly-vegetated outdoor exhibit accompanied by a large interior exhibit (itself larger than a good few exhibits for this species) containing a heated pool, and a second offshow interior enclosure. This exhibit is one of the key reasons why Chester deserves to win this round - I would argue that excellent though Prague is, as far as carnivore species go it currently has nothing which approaches this exhibit in terms of design and quality, nor the next one I will discuss.
Jaguar
.....and this is the other big-hitter at Chester; again, the best exhibit I have seen for the species in question by far, with multiple sizable outdoor enclosures - a grassland-themed one, an off-display enclosure, and a lushly-vegetated waterfall exhibit - along with multiple large indoor exhibits. One of these is also off-display, and the second (scrub/savanna-themed) is currently being put to other use (of which more later), but the third (jungle-themed) is so good that it would perhaps put forward a decent case for Chester on its own, but when taken alongside the other exhibits makes this exhibit complex world-class, and perhaps one of the very best big cat exhibits in the world.
Meerkat
Surprisingly not many photographs of this exhibit in the gallery! It's a decent exhibit, but nothing special - good-sized indoor exhibit, and a good-sized outdoor exhibit. It's actually been a few years since I've bothered to look at it so I am not sure if they are still mixed with South African Porcupine.
Nepalese Red Panda
Another relatively standard exhibit, with plenty of climbing opportunities for the inhabitants - in point of fact, the inhabitants often climb the pre-existing trees within the exhibit to quite an impressive height, rather than restricting themselves to the wooden frames provided. In short, a good exhibit but not one of the big hitters - although I *will* note that it is bigger and provides more climbing opportunities than does the exhibit at Prague which @amurleopard is so impressed by! This photograph shows perhaps a little more than half of the exhibit, I reckon:
Palawan Binturong
Sun Bear
Handling these two species together given the fact that they are mixed; the exhibit comprises a pair of large and thickly vegetated outdoor exhibits - which contain plenty of scope for the inhabitants to escape view - along with both onshow and offshow indoor dens. I'd personally rank this exhibit as one of the best exhibits for the species I have seen - certainly it isn't quite as good in some respects as the one at Burgers, such as climbing opportunities, but it is certainly a lot more thickly vegetated and perhaps a shade larger.
One of the definite carnivore gems at Chester - the exhibit for this species is without a doubt far bigger than any other I have seen, unsurprisingly when one considers that it encompasses much of the footplan of the former exhibit for Sumatran Tigers and/or Sun Bears, which provided plenty of space for the species in question. Unfortunately, this is another one which has thus-far gone relatively unrecorded in the gallery; I'd estimate this photo shows about half of the exhibit, with the (onshow) indoor exhibit visible at the rear left:
Giant Otter
And *this* is one of the two biggest gems at Chester, in terms of exhibit size and quality. It is without a shadow of a doubt the best exhibit for Giant Otters I have seen, with a massive and lushly-vegetated outdoor exhibit accompanied by a large interior exhibit (itself larger than a good few exhibits for this species) containing a heated pool, and a second offshow interior enclosure. This exhibit is one of the key reasons why Chester deserves to win this round - I would argue that excellent though Prague is, as far as carnivore species go it currently has nothing which approaches this exhibit in terms of design and quality, nor the next one I will discuss.
Jaguar
.....and this is the other big-hitter at Chester; again, the best exhibit I have seen for the species in question by far, with multiple sizable outdoor enclosures - a grassland-themed one, an off-display enclosure, and a lushly-vegetated waterfall exhibit - along with multiple large indoor exhibits. One of these is also off-display, and the second (scrub/savanna-themed) is currently being put to other use (of which more later), but the third (jungle-themed) is so good that it would perhaps put forward a decent case for Chester on its own, but when taken alongside the other exhibits makes this exhibit complex world-class, and perhaps one of the very best big cat exhibits in the world.
Meerkat
Surprisingly not many photographs of this exhibit in the gallery! It's a decent exhibit, but nothing special - good-sized indoor exhibit, and a good-sized outdoor exhibit. It's actually been a few years since I've bothered to look at it
so I am not sure if they are still mixed with South African Porcupine.Nepalese Red Panda
Another relatively standard exhibit, with plenty of climbing opportunities for the inhabitants - in point of fact, the inhabitants often climb the pre-existing trees within the exhibit to quite an impressive height, rather than restricting themselves to the wooden frames provided. In short, a good exhibit but not one of the big hitters - although I *will* note that it is bigger and provides more climbing opportunities than does the exhibit at Prague which @amurleopard is so impressed by! This photograph shows perhaps a little more than half of the exhibit, I reckon:
Palawan Binturong
Sun Bear
Handling these two species together given the fact that they are mixed; the exhibit comprises a pair of large and thickly vegetated outdoor exhibits - which contain plenty of scope for the inhabitants to escape view - along with both onshow and offshow indoor dens. I'd personally rank this exhibit as one of the best exhibits for the species I have seen - certainly it isn't quite as good in some respects as the one at Burgers, such as climbing opportunities, but it is certainly a lot more thickly vegetated and perhaps a shade larger.
Spectacled Bear
The exhibits for this species represent another of the big-hitters for Chester, with the aforementioned and previously-pictured savanna exhibit in the Jaguar house being used on occasion to hold the breeding male - I am not sure if this is the case currently - and the primary exhibit being extremely large, lushly vegetated and with only the very front portion visible to the public; again, I would say this exhibit is in the top 3 for the species in Europe, and is certainly in the upper echelons of bear exhibits as a whole. These photographs show perhaps a shade over half of the area visible to the public - the onshow viewing extends further to the right than these images show.
Sudan Cheetah
This exhibit complex comprises one of the largest I have ever seen for the species - the massive complex of both on-and-offshow exhibits at Hamerton is larger, but otherwise I am hard pushed to think of any bigger ones - and moreover the best without a doubt. Viewing of the multiple enclosures within the complex can be achieved via a covered yurt structure at the foot of one enclosure, with a footpath snaking alongside this exhibit and a neighbouring one, going up a ramp onto an elevated walkway from which these exhibits can be viewed. The exhibits contain large areas of space for the inhabitants, covered shelters and patches of thick vegetation, and (despite the degree to which the public can view the complex) plenty of scope for the inhabitants to escape view. There are also, I believe, a number of offshow holding areas.
Sumatran Tiger
Another excellent exhibit - and far bigger than any of the big cat exhibits at Prague - comprising a pair of large and thickly vegetated enclosures, one of which contains a large pool, and which are connected by a bridge which the public viewing path tunnels underneath. I believe there are also substantial offshow facilities. There is a surprising dearth of photographs showing this exhibit well, but I've tried the best I can.
The exhibits for this species represent another of the big-hitters for Chester, with the aforementioned and previously-pictured savanna exhibit in the Jaguar house being used on occasion to hold the breeding male - I am not sure if this is the case currently - and the primary exhibit being extremely large, lushly vegetated and with only the very front portion visible to the public; again, I would say this exhibit is in the top 3 for the species in Europe, and is certainly in the upper echelons of bear exhibits as a whole. These photographs show perhaps a shade over half of the area visible to the public - the onshow viewing extends further to the right than these images show.
Sudan Cheetah
This exhibit complex comprises one of the largest I have ever seen for the species - the massive complex of both on-and-offshow exhibits at Hamerton is larger, but otherwise I am hard pushed to think of any bigger ones - and moreover the best without a doubt. Viewing of the multiple enclosures within the complex can be achieved via a covered yurt structure at the foot of one enclosure, with a footpath snaking alongside this exhibit and a neighbouring one, going up a ramp onto an elevated walkway from which these exhibits can be viewed. The exhibits contain large areas of space for the inhabitants, covered shelters and patches of thick vegetation, and (despite the degree to which the public can view the complex) plenty of scope for the inhabitants to escape view. There are also, I believe, a number of offshow holding areas.
Sumatran Tiger
Another excellent exhibit - and far bigger than any of the big cat exhibits at Prague - comprising a pair of large and thickly vegetated enclosures, one of which contains a large pool, and which are connected by a bridge which the public viewing path tunnels underneath. I believe there are also substantial offshow facilities. There is a surprising dearth of photographs showing this exhibit well, but I've tried the best I can.
Yeah, my error - when flicking through the thread earlier I took the shot of the sealion exhibit to be the polar bear exhibit.
This is the Prague exhibit for polar bear:
Thanks for the clarifying photos @TeaLovingDave. I feel pretty confident now in my 2-1 Chester vote based on the additional information, as most of those exhibits look very impressive in both size and skin. I especially like the landscaping and design of the painted dog and spectacled bear habitats.
This a bit disingenuous to me seeing as the mongoose have an on-show exhibit and are simply in quarantine atm. Also the two Malagasy carnivores are planned to go on-show once the brand new Madagascar complex continues to develop. Even if one still chooses to consider the Euplerids as completely off-show--which I have no issues with since they will likely remain so for some time--the mongoose definitely shouldn't count as such as the enclosure is already finished and they could go on-exhibit literally any day now. This leave the wildcat: yes, many zoos breed wildcats, but most zoos cannot release their animals back into the wild because they're too humanized. Chester, similar to San Diego with Dholes, keeps their wildcats in a way that gives them minimal contact with Humans so that offspring can be one day released back into the wild to try and bolster Critically Endangered wild population. This is definitely more significant and also ties into their conservation programs.
As a side note (which I think I already stated last match), I think it's ridiculous not to count zoos bts activity and if we do so we're going to have to start cutting many zoo breeding programs for ectotherms out of the picture in future matches. Species kept behind the scenes should 100% count, especially if it's for a purpose as important as breeding for reintroduction.
~Thylo
I'd definitely echo this sentiment, Chester looks like it has some truly spectacular Carnivore exhibits.
I really, really liked the look of the Giant Otter exhibit, and I'd never seen a photo of the Sudan Cheetah exhibit but it also stood out as terrific.
FunkyGibbon
Well-Known Member
I'm sure. My point is not that people need to visit a collection to vote for it, they obviously don't. What I'm pointing out is that you are appealing to personal experience, 'I have been to Chester', but then making a case that is based on a comparison with Prague, which you haven't visited.
To be even clearer:
You are supporting Prague because the collection is obviously superior to Chester. That's absolutely fine; it's a position I am quite tempted with myself.
Others, including yours truly, have argued that although Chester loses on collection it is so far ahead on exhibit quality that it takes the win anyway. And actually, I think we take the position a little further; Prague is really behind on exhibits. They are surprisingly average for a zoo of its standing, leaving it vulnerable to exactly this scenario.
The part I am objecting to is this:
What does it mean? Clearly it's not a reference to collection size, since that information has already been covered and is freely available to anyone who hasn't visited. Therefore it's reasonable to think that what you are saying is that actually Chester isn't so far ahead on exhibitry. But what is the basis for that? You haven't visited Prague (my original point) so you can't make this specific argument based on personal experience. You might be saying that you have seen Chester's exhibits personally and they are really not that good, therefore people should vote Prague, but you definitely aren't saying that:
I think you're being a bit harsh here but that's your prerogative. My point still stands, you agree that Chester's exhibitry is 'very good'.
I am definitely not saying that your opinion that Prague should win is not valid, or that people who haven't visited Prague shouldn't vote for it. I am just pointing out that it's hard to see how you can be so sure one way or the other that the exhibitry argument is not enough to defeat the collection argument.
@pipaluk , do you care to explain why you changed your vote to 3 - 0 for Prague?
I am personally more of the opposite, I have visited Prague (and I really like the zoo), but voted for Chester. Prague is a great zoo, but the greatness comes mostly from the ungulates, birds and ectotherms, it also has big carnivore and rodent collections, but those enclosures are mostly distinctly average.
When going through all Prague's enclosures the only one that is par with the best of Chester is the Coati enclosure. Some of the small cat enclosures and the Smooth-coated otter enclosure are also quite good, but apart from that a lot of the enclosures range from fine to just acceptable to just very bad (Polar bear, Javan leopard). The title of best Javan leopard enclosure probably goes to Doue-la-Fontaine, but that Prague and Pairi Daiza were even in the race says a lot about the overall quality. To me excellence in enclosures does more than just having a big and interesting line-up.
We would be having the same debate, probably even more polarizing, when for example Burgers' Zoo was against Zoo Berlin on primates, with the former having 11 species and the latter close to 30, but exhibit-wise the difference would be this:
showing half of the Gorilla island in Burgers' Zoo
against this:
The Primate house in Berlin
I am personally more of the opposite, I have visited Prague (and I really like the zoo), but voted for Chester. Prague is a great zoo, but the greatness comes mostly from the ungulates, birds and ectotherms, it also has big carnivore and rodent collections, but those enclosures are mostly distinctly average.
When going through all Prague's enclosures the only one that is par with the best of Chester is the Coati enclosure. Some of the small cat enclosures and the Smooth-coated otter enclosure are also quite good, but apart from that a lot of the enclosures range from fine to just acceptable to just very bad (Polar bear, Javan leopard). The title of best Javan leopard enclosure probably goes to Doue-la-Fontaine, but that Prague and Pairi Daiza were even in the race says a lot about the overall quality. To me excellence in enclosures does more than just having a big and interesting line-up.
We would be having the same debate, probably even more polarizing, when for example Burgers' Zoo was against Zoo Berlin on primates, with the former having 11 species and the latter close to 30, but exhibit-wise the difference would be this:
showing half of the Gorilla island in Burgers' Zoo
against this:
The Primate house in Berlin
How is that going to work?