ZooChat Cup Match #32: Berlin Tierpark (3) vs Rotterdam

[dublinlion]

Generally I find that German zoos are a bit scruffier but more interesting than Dutch zoos. I have been to quite a lot of the major european zoos and most are very good and have diverse collections, including these two.The public vote system for this game is great as it shows strong (becoming predictable) voting paterns and imo definite bias, which is fair enough. But the anomaly in the patern was Dublin, with its very pc and educational, (if a little boring) ec otherm collection, failing to find favour with at least a couple of the more conscientious game participants.
My early prediction for the final is Chester v Burgers.

 

[sooty mangabey]

Generally I find that German zoos are a bit scruffier but more interesting than Dutch zoos.

I'm not sure that "scruffy" is the first adjective that comes to mind when I think of German zoos!

 

[FunkyGibbon]

When did you visit?

For the first time in June/July in 2015, which is when I formed these opinions, and then again in August 2017, which is when I saw both the plans for the development and the beginning of the work itself, which caused my lack of faith that the improvements will be ''enough'.

 

[pipaluk]

Generally I find that German zoos are a bit scruffier but more interesting than Dutch zoos. I have been to quite a lot of the major european zoos and most are very good and have diverse collections, including these two.The public vote system for this game is great as it shows strong (becoming predictable) voting paterns and imo definite bias, which is fair enough. But the anomaly in the patern was Dublin, with its very pc and educational, (if a little boring) ec otherm collection, failing to find favour with at least a couple of the more conscientious game participants.
My early prediction for the final is Chester v Burgers.

I think you have a point , I think some zoos will win through whatever happens! Zurich took massive criticism for its ape house but when it came down to it many of those who voted for Zurich despite that are now criticising a few Tierpark enclosures and using enclosures as an argument over collection ! Tierpark wins on collection easily!
Then we have the Burgers v Wroclaw situation. ....

 

[CGSwans]

I think you have a point , I think some zoos will win through whatever happens! Zurich took massive criticism for its ape house but when it came down to it many of those who voted for Zurich despite that are now criticising a few Tierpark enclosures and using enclosures as an argument over collection ! Tierpark wins on collection easily!
Then we have the Burgers v Wroclaw situation. ....

The difference between the Zurich and Tierpark votes being a stronger opponent that doesn’t repeat many of the seeded zoo’s problems in the given category, as Copenhagen does.

I wouldn’t be giving up on the speciose zoos just yet. I think Prague, for instance, is a very strong contender. Berlin Zoo needs to get through a couple of potential ungulate land mines in Cabarcino and Dvur Kralove, but as long as it doesn’t suffer that mismatch should comfortably reach a quarter final.

 

[pipaluk]

For the first time in June/July in 2015, which is when I formed these opinions, and then again in August 2017, which is when I saw both the plans for the development and the beginning of the work itself, which caused my lack of faith that the improvements will be ''enough'.

Ok, I visited in June 2017 and the only really poorly housed large carnivores were outside to the left hand side of the AB house, a Javan Leopard and Sumatran Tiger in single cages, plus the outside sun bear cage( if the outside was better, I don't think the indoors would matter, it's bigger than many large carnivores get!).

 

[pipaluk]

The difference between the Zurich and Tierpark votes being a stronger opponent that doesn’t repeat many of the seeded zoo’s problems in the given category, as Copenhagen does.

I wouldn’t be giving up on the speciose zoos just yet. I think Prague, for instance, is a very strong contender. Berlin Zoo needs to get through a couple of potential ungulate land mines in Cabarcino and Dvur Kralove, but as long as it doesn’t suffer that mismatch should comfortably reach a quarter final.

The way these votes are going zoo Berlin stands no chance as enclosure quality for the few seems to carry more weight! Each to their own ! Even Edinburgh's embarrassing Ecotherms nearly won!

 

[CGSwans]

The way these votes are going zoo Berlin stands no chance as enclosure quality for the few seems to carry more weight! Each to their own ! Even Edinburgh's embarrassing Ecotherms nearly won!

Wroclaw was agonisingly close to beating perhaps the most progressive zoo in the world. Plzen won convincingly despite a spirited campaign for Basel. Cologne overcame Frankfurt to a significant degree on the strength of its collection. So did Dvur Kralove over Poznan. I tried and failed to get Hannover over the line against Moscow.

Certainly, zoos with large collections in good exhibits look very strong (Chester and Beauval come to mind)... but doesn’t that make sense?

 

[CGSwans]

I actually think the lesson from the first round is that the competition is working, and that debate can sway the result. The Tierpark got out to an early lead but has been overhauled to a significant degree because of the strong campaign by FunkyGibbon, Giant Panda and others. Similarly, Lintworm led an ultimately successful campaign for Burgers.

 

[pipaluk]

I actually think the lesson from the first round is that the competition is working, and that debate can sway the result. The Tierpark got out to an early lead but has been overhauled to a significant degree because of the strong campaign by FunkyGibbon, Giant Panda and others. Similarly, Lintworm led an ultimately successful campaign for Burgers.

To be fair, very few votes seem to change in the majority of cases. It's the new votes that sway it and some may be influenced , some may have been pre-determined anyway.

 

[Vision]

The stumbling block here is the Alfred Brehm House. I don't think anyone is going to be persuaded, one way or the other, but I can think of many reasons to love this house (not all fo which are wholly relevant to this vote, and she of which may no longer be valid since they started buggering around with the place about 5 years ago)...

• Its vastness is, in itself, impressive.
• It speaks of the optimism of a socialist government (even if that socialist government may have been, er, discredited in many other areas).
• It has bronze (?) tarsiers, or bushbabies, on the bannisters of the stairs.
• Purely on observed evidence, gathered wholly unscientifically, but the keepers in the house seem to have a wonderful bond with their animals - on a number of occasions I've seen the sort of thing which is no doubt frowned upon by most modern zoos, but which is wonderful nonetheless - keepers communicating directly with jaguars, leopards, whatever. Feeding them by hand.
• The small mammal exhibits, upstairs.
• The wonderful walk-through aviary in the middle.
• The rocky exhibits for lions and tigers.
• The enormous statue at the entrance.

Most of these things are definitely true, and I definitely agree it is a great building (and I hope most others here do too). However, what it is not is a great building for large carnivores, and that is what this poll is about.

Either way, I did just check zootierliste again and it appears Berlin has gotten rid of their lions, meaning both Siberian and Malayan tiger now (hopefully) have full access to their outdoor and indoor enclosures. That's one positive thing, compared to what the situation was when I visited in 2016, but I don't think it excuses the row of tiny and boring cages in the rest of the house.

 

[CGSwans]

To be fair, very few votes seem to change in the majority of cases. It's the new votes that sway it and some may be influenced , some may have been pre-determined anyway.

I watch the numbers pretty closely, as I'm observing whether the game is working as intended. Votes are definitely changing - one just did two minutes ago, in fact.

 

[Giant Panda]

@sooty mangabey: It's a spectrum, isn't it? Every problem I highlighted (and a lot more besides) are uncontroversial welfare issues and all apply to the Brehm House. So, although most zoo exhibits expose their inhabitants to visitors and potentially stressful neighbours, good ones provide adequate space and effective sensory barriers. Many of the Tierpark's carnivores don't have this. Whilst every exhibit limits choice, control, and the expression of natural behaviours to some extent, most do better than a few feet to run in and a log to climb on.

Tarring all zoos with the Tierpark's brush here is equivalent to me arguing that Blijdorp's large carnivore collection is just as good as Berlin's, to a greater or lesser extent, because, erm, it has carnivores. Well, yes, but not as many. Just as their exhibits have flaws, but not as many. And @pipaluk's misrepresentations aside, I've been gratified that these polls suggest a plurality of ZooChatter's feel that matters*.

*Even if I, too, am a sucker for bronze tarsiers.

 

[lintworm]

I actually think the lesson from the first round is that the competition is working, and that debate can sway the result. The Tierpark got out to an early lead but has been overhauled to a significant degree because of the strong campaign by FunkyGibbon, Giant Panda and others. Similarly, Lintworm led an ultimately successful campaign for Burgers.

I was actually very surprised Burgers' won. Not that I think it is undeserved, but my opinion is often a bit different than others...

The discussions here are really enjoyable and mostly fair imo. The only bias I think there is, is that votes tend to go to the more visited zoos in general, but that is not strange, nothing beats personal experience.

 

[CGSwans]

The other thing to emphasise is that the structure of this game acknowledges that different people value different things. That is very deliberate, and why I made it so there were no directions on what criteria people could use.

I disagreed with Lintworm on who should win that Burgers-Wroclaw match, but I simultaneously agreed with almost everything he said about Burgers: I was just emphasising different factors. We were judging the contest on slightly different criteria and so came to different conclusions despite holding broadly similar opinions.

Sooty can focus on his specific design aesthetic, and FunkyGibbon can focus on his. Giant Panda can vote on scientific best practice, Dassie Rat on species diversity and Becca can vote on whether there's sun bears. A majority consensus might land against any one of us on one or even most votes, but the nature of the game is such that it doesn't invalidate those various perspectives - it only synthesises them.

I'm very pleased with how it's working so far.

 

[agnmeln]

I think what makes this whole thing much more exciting is that we aren’t looking at the zoos as a whole, and that it all boils down to one particular category. Since we don’t know exactly which zoos will face off against each other in the later rounds, or exactly whether they will land on one of their stronger or weaker categories, genuinely anything could happen! I agree that there is some level of unconscious bias involved, but you still have to be realistic. This is why I am being very careful with my votes - I can identify when I feel that my own personal bias is playing a part, and so I hold back, especially when I’ve only visited one of the two zoos. Otherwise I would just vote for every zoo with sun bears in the large carnivore category!

I probably wouldn’t say German zoos are scruffy, but I do understand the point, I would probably say more that they are perhaps less aesthetically polished and perfected and a little bit more rugged.