You're right, Pipaluk. Berlin Zoo also has a tayra, although I couldn't find the giant panda, tayra, eastern ring-tailed vontsira or northern narrow-striped boky on the full list for the Zoo. As SabineB says, the expert search includes species for the Tierpark as well. I can understand why people get confused.
ZooChat Cup Match #41: Berlin Zoo (2) vs Cabarceno
- Thread starter CGSwans
- Start date
Perhaps
Perhaps Maguari will be a storking horse.
Not if you search for species kept at Berlin (Zoologischer Garten) instead of just Berlin.
@LaughingDove used the expert search for Berlin (Zoologischer Garten) and his list contains the Panda, vontsira, boky and tayra and not any species from the Tierpark....
So what did SabineB do wrong and why do some species seem to be in the Expert Search, but not in the main list?
As @SabineB herself sad:
i might have had a rather significant brain fart and will now retreat and sleep a little. disregard me today
With regards to differences in the normal search and the expert search. I think it is very easy to miss a species in the long lists of the normal search, I do the same quite often. So just human error instead of a fault in the zootierliste (giant panda and vontsira do show up also in a normal search, but with 1193 entries, it is easy to miss....)
Thanks Lintworm. I've been through the list 3 times, but, as you say, it is easy to miss one or two species. I think SabineB's explanation may occur in the next series of 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'.
14-14 now, with a strong English backing of Zoo Berlin, the Germans went for Cabarceno (2-1). Not the first time in history that West Berlin was saved by the Allies.
I wonder how @Maguari thinks about this match as he is one of the very few who has visited both parks...
I'm really not sure. Cabarceno's carnivore enclosures have more in common with Jurassic Park than a city zoo like Berlin, but some of them are too bare (jags and lynx in particular) for my taste, and the diversity and conservation relevance is obviously higher at Berlin. I also think the tiny, concretey mongoose enclosures at Cabarceno are the worst carnivore exhibits at either zoo, so I'm leaning Berlin - but I would feel bad voting down that Cabarceno bear enclosure...
I'm torn. But will probably come down for Berlin. Maybe. Could we not have had elephants for this match?
Hmm, interesting. I voted for Cabarceno because of their alledged superior enclosure quality, but if they get that wrong for meerkats (basically the only small carnivores they have), then there's something wrong as well...
As the majority of Berlin's enclosures are also good and they show a larger diversity, I feel like I have to change my vote, though I still might yet change it again.
As the majority of Berlin's enclosures are also good and they show a larger diversity, I feel like I have to change my vote, though I still might yet change it again.
sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
Having not yet been to Cabarceno, the question I would ask would be about the level of husbandry there. We've all seen the fantastic photos of huge numbers of bears in one enclosure, and it looks great - but is this really good for the bears? They're not known as a herd animal. And if there are lots of bears, presumably there are lots of bear cubs. What happens to these each year? These are genuine, not rhetorical, questions.
littleRedPanda
Well-Known Member
I'm sure that question was raised before when I was looking into it, but I don't think it was answered.
For awhile it looked like Berlin and Antwerp were going to join Tierpark and Wroclaw in the early losers enclosure but for a surprising and quite late turnaround. In the past it was difficult to judge the value (to me) of various zoochatters reviews. But based on the fairly consistent preferences of the voters on these polls, it is clear to see whose reviews should be more relevant to my tastes for future reference.
This thread is a great idea, and even though I only vote when i have reasonable knowledge of both zoos, it is still worth following all of these threads for the various opinions and dassierats lists.
Still predict Chester and Burghers for the final provided they avoid each other.
This thread is a great idea, and even though I only vote when i have reasonable knowledge of both zoos, it is still worth following all of these threads for the various opinions and dassierats lists.
Still predict Chester and Burghers for the final provided they avoid each other.
SabineB
Well-Known Member
This match has taken an interesting turn ever since 'number of species' took over . Please do not get me wrong, purely in the sense of this cup, Berlin Zoo has a way greater chance of coming out of this as the final winner than Carbaceno any given day ever had. But for now (or today until mid 2019) most of the animals in the cat house and the nocturnal house are off show due to construction; and which species will come back remains to be seen; which does leave the visitors for the next 12 to 16 months with a very limited set of carnivores: one polar bear, one asiatc black bear, sloth bears, arctic wolves, panda bears, pinnipeds and the like and not much more to actually see.
So as we are talking: carnivores 2018 - to which of these two zoo should you go today to see....', I am still bewildered by the vote. I guess running against well established zoo with considerable name recognition is a huge problem, especially when you are running against the 'zoo with the moste species', kind of like betting on major football teams in the champions league without actually having a real match, and boy there have been surprises when they actually played. I argued this in round one, Carbaceno should not have won on ectotherms in the first place, but it did purely on snake numbers regardless the husbandry circumstances.
There was the question of husbandry regarding the brown bears. I have not found any reliable numbers on how many cubs total are born in Carbaceno each year, but from annual pictures of the group there seem to be less cubs born than in some swedish zoos I have been to that hold breeding brown bears. Of those it is known but off course not always reported about openly, that surplus is being culled on a regular basis, be that in Sweden or Denmark. So I would think it to be fair to assume that the same procedure is used in Carbaceno as well. There was an issue with culling wolves in 2014 of which I found a report about.
So as we are talking: carnivores 2018 - to which of these two zoo should you go today to see....', I am still bewildered by the vote. I guess running against well established zoo with considerable name recognition is a huge problem, especially when you are running against the 'zoo with the moste species', kind of like betting on major football teams in the champions league without actually having a real match, and boy there have been surprises when they actually played. I argued this in round one, Carbaceno should not have won on ectotherms in the first place, but it did purely on snake numbers regardless the husbandry circumstances.
There was the question of husbandry regarding the brown bears. I have not found any reliable numbers on how many cubs total are born in Carbaceno each year, but from annual pictures of the group there seem to be less cubs born than in some swedish zoos I have been to that hold breeding brown bears. Of those it is known but off course not always reported about openly, that surplus is being culled on a regular basis, be that in Sweden or Denmark. So I would think it to be fair to assume that the same procedure is used in Carbaceno as well. There was an issue with culling wolves in 2014 of which I found a report about.
Interesting point, can anyone local or who has recently visited post a list of what's currently on-show as this may inform some opinions (including my own). Basically I voted Berlin as it's the place I'd choose to visit for Carnivores (even though it might have inferior enclosures to Cabarceno I'd still largely consider them adequate) but that might change if a significant amount of species were off-show. Note I'm not all about species (though I have a bias towards that) -it's just one of a number of factors. Note also that I discount Lions and Tigers from my considerations -not showy, seen them too many times, don't really pay attention to them much.
I'm not sure how I feel about this -whilst I don't have a problem with culling in general it seems strange (and perhaps wrong
??) to hold so many animals then breeding significant number of cubs that have to be culled. That said, are we certain they're having cubs? Maybe they could be sterilised or on contraceptives?
SabineB
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure how I feel about this -whilst I don't have a problem with culling in general it seems strange (and perhaps wrong
I am referring to the following article I found.
And they are certainly still having cubs. How they in reality manage who breeds and who does not, I do not know, I would assume they separate the bears and may sterilize potent males. But I would almost rule out contraception, as I cannot come up with a feasible way how they would guarantee to deliver contraceptives to the targeted female.
They have had multiple cubs in the enclosure on both my visits, so they are certainly being born!
Damn, now I'll definitely have to ruminate on my thoughts on the set-up.................
This is quite some turnaround!
I’ll say!
.I'm not sure how I feel about this -whilst I don't have a problem with culling in general it seems strange (and perhaps wrong
I’ll say!