ZooChat Cup Match #46: Pairi Daiza vs Moscow
- Thread starter CGSwans
- Start date
Pairi Daiza is very lucky to have a wide variety of ungulates, so it gets my vote.
An incredibly interesting match that I will be excited to see the outcome of. Potentially two of the most collectionist zoos out there.
My vote is going to Pairi Daiza. Though I have not seen Moscow's enclosures, I don't need to hear much to be convinced that, like a lot of their husbandry, they're sub-standard. Pairi Daiza, whilst enjoying the 'gotta catch em all' method, does have some rather strong ungulate enclosures. Some, not all (the pygmy hippo enclosure and camel paddock are weak for starters), but still enough to convince me. A literal rice paddy field for water buffalo and Visayan warty pigs, a lovely takin enclosure, a couple of nice paddocks for African hoofstock, a common hippo enclosure with underwater viewing (always a tick in my book), and the largest population of elephants in Europe (0.3 African elephants and a grand total of 3.14 Asian elephants currently), with two more baby elephants on the way. Admittedly, the elephant demonstrations are a black mark in my book, but it will likely end up remaining as my vote unless someone can do a lot to change my mind.
My vote is going to Pairi Daiza. Though I have not seen Moscow's enclosures, I don't need to hear much to be convinced that, like a lot of their husbandry, they're sub-standard. Pairi Daiza, whilst enjoying the 'gotta catch em all' method, does have some rather strong ungulate enclosures. Some, not all (the pygmy hippo enclosure and camel paddock are weak for starters), but still enough to convince me. A literal rice paddy field for water buffalo and Visayan warty pigs, a lovely takin enclosure, a couple of nice paddocks for African hoofstock, a common hippo enclosure with underwater viewing (always a tick in my book), and the largest population of elephants in Europe (0.3 African elephants and a grand total of 3.14 Asian elephants currently), with two more baby elephants on the way. Admittedly, the elephant demonstrations are a black mark in my book, but it will likely end up remaining as my vote unless someone can do a lot to change my mind.
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I have voted for Moscow for now, I don't know how their enclosures look like, but Pairi Daiza is rather underwhelming in this regard. Many enclosures in PD are on the smaller side or inadequate (I am looking at you Pygmy hippo). Some enclosures are visually appealing like the Takin one, but none have the wow-factor.
But the main reason I am voting against Pairi Daiza is their ridiculous elephant policy. Very nice that they have 20 elephants in multiple enclosures but they have a hands-on method that was outdated 20 years ago. I am not sure how the elephant bathing looks like now, but the fact that it is all hands-on with mahouts all the way is just plain wrong in my view for a modern zoo....
But the main reason I am voting against Pairi Daiza is their ridiculous elephant policy. Very nice that they have 20 elephants in multiple enclosures but they have a hands-on method that was outdated 20 years ago. I am not sure how the elephant bathing looks like now, but the fact that it is all hands-on with mahouts all the way is just plain wrong in my view for a modern zoo....
Both: Asian elephant (both have south-east Asian); South American tapir; giraffe (Moscow includes Cape; Pairi Daiza includes Rothschild’s); Pere Davids deer; takin (Moscow has Sichuan, Pairi Daiza has Shensi); blue sheep (Moscow has northern, Pairi Daiza has Himalayan); Western pygmy hippopotamus
Moscow
Yellow-spotted rock hyrax
Przewalskis horse; Grevys zebra
Guanaco
Greater mouse deer
Altai wapiti; Eurasian moose
Kirks dik-dik; Rocky Mountain goat; barren ground musk ox; Sichuan takin; east Caucasian tur; Tajik markhor; eastern bongo; black sable antelope; black wildebeest
Black Sea bottlenose dolphin
Pairi Daiza
African elephant
Grants zebra
Southern white rhinoceros
Red river hog; Negros warty pig; northern warthog
Java mouse deer
Reeves muntjac; Common fallow deer; Myanmar thamin
Central Chinese goral; plains bison; Cape buffalo; Western sitatunga; greater kudu; common impala; blesbok; brindled gnu
Hippopotamus
Moscow has a hyrax, camelid and a dolphin and has more species of horses and bovids, while Pairi Daiza has a rhinoceros and pigs and has more species of deer and hippos.
Moscow wins on diversity.
Moscow
Yellow-spotted rock hyrax
Przewalskis horse; Grevys zebra
Guanaco
Greater mouse deer
Altai wapiti; Eurasian moose
Kirks dik-dik; Rocky Mountain goat; barren ground musk ox; Sichuan takin; east Caucasian tur; Tajik markhor; eastern bongo; black sable antelope; black wildebeest
Black Sea bottlenose dolphin
Pairi Daiza
African elephant
Grants zebra
Southern white rhinoceros
Red river hog; Negros warty pig; northern warthog
Java mouse deer
Reeves muntjac; Common fallow deer; Myanmar thamin
Central Chinese goral; plains bison; Cape buffalo; Western sitatunga; greater kudu; common impala; blesbok; brindled gnu
Hippopotamus
Moscow has a hyrax, camelid and a dolphin and has more species of horses and bovids, while Pairi Daiza has a rhinoceros and pigs and has more species of deer and hippos.
Moscow wins on diversity.
SabineB
Well-Known Member
Yep. This is my reason for my vote too. Pairi Daiza took in Aye Chan May and her son Khin Yadanar Min from Cologne contracted to be kept in hands-off condition. They violated that contract with Aye Chan May.
It was definitely still done last year, and I believe I've seen pictures of it this season as well. I doubt this will stop any time soon...
I really dislike Pairi Daiza's trend of importing species and not actually having enough space for them. This has been the case for the pygmy hippos, which are now in an enclosure that's only visible from the top down, has barely any land space and almost no shade or way to hide at all. The gorals they got last year were just placed on one of the small crane islands together with gibbons (and still the cranes that were already there). A third example is the Pere David's deer, which were supposed to go in the enclosure opposite the black bears (that now holds the juvenile giant panda), but were in a very small enclosure next to the bears for quite a long time instead...
All this, combined with the hands-on policy for their elephants, means I can't really vote for Pairi Daiza.
However, they also do have some absolutely excellent enclosures. While I don't agree with the hands-on policy, the elephant reserve (which they share with blackbuck) is absolutely gigantic, and the bison steppe is probably one of the biggest bison enclosures in Europe. The African savanna is very nice, the common hippo enclosure is good, the water buffalo rice terraces are well-made and the mix with warty pigs is a fun one... All good things that so far I've not seen Moscow match, either. So I'm not voting for, nor against Pairi Daiza, unless someone convinces me about Moscow being better.
I have heard many things about Pairi Daiza's use of elephants, but I have one question that needs to be answered. Does Moscow use their dolphins for presentations, shows and the like?
Moscow's cetaceans are all off-show, or at least were at the time of my visit in July last year.
Pairi Daiza's elephant procedures certainly sound deeply problematic. But then so are Moscow's tiny, all-concrete yards for several ungulate species. I'm keeping my vote with Pairi Daiza pending more info.
Having lived 2 years in the middle of Pairi Daiza ( which had in this time however only Blackbucks from the group involved ) my vote has to go to Pairi Daiza ! Not agree with their elephant-keeping method but almost all the other ungulate-enclosure are good to very good and the variation is also quite good..
I had hoped you could give a bit more info
But in Moscow's defence, I assume they are dealing with legacy effects from a gone era when it comes to the majority of their sub-par enclosures. Pairi Daiza on the other hand has only started keeping elephants in about 2009, years after all other zoos in the lower countries had already changed to protected contact, so there was absolutely no reason to treat elephants the way they did and still do. For me that is just a red flag, regardless whether the rest is world class or not (but the Pygmy hippo who was put in a fur seal enclosure disagrees....),. The same would be if Amneville's category would have been carnivores. Even if most enclosures there are more than fine and they have a nice variety, their tiger show is just too bad....
I had hoped you could give a bit more info
But in Moscow's defence, I assume they are dealing with legacy effects from a gone era when it comes to the majority of their sub-par enclosures. Pairi Daiza on the other hand has only started keeping elephants in about 2009, years after all other zoos in the lower countries had already changed to protected contact, so there was absolutely no reason to treat elephants the way they did and still do. For me that is just a red flag, regardless whether the rest is world class or not (but the Pygmy hippo who was put in a fur seal enclosure disagrees....),. The same would be if Amneville's category would have been carnivores. Even if most enclosures there are more than fine and they have a nice variety, their tiger show is just too bad....
Sorry, I was in the midst of a flu and associated malaise at the time, and I don't have clear memories other than the ungulate exhibits were all small, and many were entirely concrete. I certainly cannot recommend a vote 'for' Moscow, so it boils down to whether you view the elephant procedures as even more disqualifying.
SabineB
Well-Known Member
I agree. Elephants in PD and tigers in Amneville are equally disqualifying in their respective categories.