ZooChat Cup Match #48: Leipzig vs Rotterdam

[CGSwans]

A second-round clash of the titans, this. Leipzig got here via a comfortable, if not emphatic, win over Rhenen on birds, 17-10. Rotterdam remains the only zoo so far to defeat a seed, overcoming the Tierpark 24-15 on large carnivores. This time? Ectotherms.

There won't be a poll tomorrow or for the next couple of days, until the second round is fully complete. Feel free to use this thread not only for what promises to be an engaging debate about two elite zoos, but to cast your eyes forward to the third round. We're getting to the business end now.

 

[lintworm]

Probably the only category in which Rotterdam would be the clear favorite... Even with the Riviera hall being completely stripped of terraria, Rotterdam still has the Oceanium, which for me is the second best zoo-aquarium in Europe. Additionally they have some reptiles spread throughout the zoo, in Amazonia, the Asia house and most notably the Crocodile river and in the Oceanium itself. Leipzig does have a nice aquarium - terrarium building, but that is pretty much blown away by the sheer size of the Oceanium. The additional reptiles in Gondwanaland cannot save that for me...

 

[CGSwans]

I thought Oceanium was a sterile and boring aquarium, to be honest. It lacks the scale or gravitas of a real, stand alone one, but also the character to be found in Berlin or Zurich. Leipzig's is modest and dated, but it's not an enormous, big budget flop either.

 

[Hvedekorn]

I haven't visited Rotterdam, and I'd surely like to see the Oceanium (and the rest of the zoo) one day. But is Rotterdam really a clear favorite?

Leipzig's aquarium has a plethora of fish species and many interesting rarities such as ornate cowfish and opaleye (housed together with some other unusual Pacific fish). Surely they have more species of freshwater fish than Rotterdam, and they can't be lacking far behind when it comes to tropical saltwater fish, though Rotterdam seems to have more temperate saltwater fish. Leipzig's reptile house is not huge by any means, but it has a decent-sized reptile collection. As far as I've read, Rotterdam suffered a huge loss of reptiles when they rebuilt the Riviera hall. Anyways, I found that most of the fish and reptiles in Leipzig had fine exhibits.

There's also at least a dozen more exhibits for ectotherms in Gondwanaland. The Komodo dragon/false gharial exhibits are excellent, and it's very nice to see a line-up with three species of lungfish in fairly big tanks. And then there's the free-living reptiles and amphibians which have the biggest zoo exhibit they could ever hope for, though I'm not sure they should factor in given the slim chances of seeing most of them (I only saw green iguanas and a brown anole during my visit)

Leipzig's roster of invertebrates isn't that interesting, though - the standard aquarium species (corals, sea stars, urchins, crabs etc.) and horseshoe crabs in Gondwanaland. During my visit, the species of land-living invertebrates were limited to tarantulas and stick insects. Does Rotterdam have more invertebrates?

All in all, I believe that Leipzig is doing better in this category than most of its competitors in this cup. But the Oceanium does seem to be a strong opponent. I'll hold my vote until more people make cases for Rotterdam.

 

[vogelcommando]

Know Rotterdam from numberous visits and know Leipzig from the daily-zoo-soap ( Elephant, Tiger und Co. ) and from that I would surely say Rotterdam wins this one !

 

[sooty mangabey]

It's Leipzig for me.

When I think of Blijdorp in this area, I think of the Riviera Hall, once a genuinely great zoo exhibit, now a rather tatty relic of the past (I appreciate that renovation would have been all-but-impossible, but even so....). The Oceanium is pretty good, sure, but on my last visit - 5 or 6 years ago, so things might have changed - I did think it had gone downhill, markedly. Although not covered by this contest, the loss of the Sea Otters was a blow; the Penguin exhibit never seemed to quite work. The aquarium bits? Fine. But more Sealife Centre than Burgers. Reptile stuff in there? Not sure it;s anything spectacular either. The nearby butterfly exhibit is pretty good, if you like butterfly exhibits (I can take or leave, to be honest).

Leipzig: the old aquarium and reptile house complex is one of my favourite parts of the zoo. It has the character which is lacking in much else of Leipzig, with that fantastic art nouveau frontage. There's a real sense of things being done properly - Fabian Schmidt (the Senior Curator) appears to be someone who knows his onions. And over in Gondwanaland: some brilliant displays for landmark reptiles (Gavials especially) as well as a large number of free-ranging animals.

 

[lintworm]

I never thought I would be defending Rotterdam over Leipzig, but alas here we go...

Leipzig's aquarium has a plethora of fish species and many interesting rarities such as ornate cowfish and opaleye (housed together with some other unusual Pacific fish). Surely they have more species of freshwater fish than Rotterdam, and they can't be lacking far behind when it comes to tropical saltwater fish, though Rotterdam seems to have more temperate saltwater fish. Leipzig's reptile house is not huge by any means, but it has a decent-sized reptile collection. As far as I've read, Rotterdam suffered a huge loss of reptiles when they rebuilt the Riviera hall. Anyways, I found that most of the fish and reptiles in Leipzig had fine exhibits.

Yes when it comes to freshwater fishes Leipzig has the better collection. Rotterdam only has a few of those, 2 aquaria in the Oceanium for S-American species, Tigerfish, Catfish and cichlids in the Crocodile river and a nice selection of larger S-American fish in the butterfly hall.

The reptile collection is surely much smaller than it once was, but Rotterdam had no other option given their financial situation 10 years ago than to modify the Rivera hall. Some of the species are still behind the scenes (like the Malagasy tortoises) and there are reptile & amphibian exhibits scattered throughout the zoo now. There is the crocodile river with enclosures for Nile crocodile and Slender-snouted crocodile, that are at least par with the Gharial enclosure in Gondwanaland. The crocodile river also house Spurred tortoise and several smaller African lizards and Pancake tortoise. The Amazonica hall features Anaconda, Poison dart frogs and several turtle species, most notably a few huge Arrau-turtles. Several Asian species have been relocted in the Asia house, like the Komodo dragon, Cobra, Crocodile lizard among others. The Oceanium houses several interesting reptiles and amphibians, most notably Mountain chicken and Lesser Antillean iguana, Galapagos turtles and several N-American species. And soon the Malagasy turtles (and gecko + chameleon) will come back here as well in a new development.

Leipzig is not exactly bad in reptile breeding, but Rotterdam's involvement in especially breeding of turtles and tortoises is on a whole different level...

Leipzig's roster of invertebrates isn't that interesting, though - the standard aquarium species (corals, sea stars, urchins, crabs etc.) and horseshoe crabs in Gondwanaland. During my visit, the species of land-living invertebrates were limited to tarantulas and stick insects. Does Rotterdam have more invertebrates?

Rotterdam has more, especially because they have a large butterfly walkthrough. Additionally they have the same if not more corals, sea stars, urchins etc in the Oceanium. They also used to have Horseshoe crabs there, but I am not sure whether those are still present. Apart from grasshoppers in the Crocodile river. Tarantula in the Oceanium and stick insects in the elephant house, I can't think of additional land invertebrates.

Reptile stuff in there? Not sure it;s anything spectacular either

Mountain chicken, Lesser antillean iguana, Utila iguana and two sea turtle species would fit that for me.

Though I agree that the theming in the Oceanium is not to the same standard as in Burgers' and looks a bit tired in places, the species line-up is far from tired and most tanks are very spacious indeed (what can't be said of most tanks in Leipzig).

 

[Hvedekorn]

Oh yeah, I forgot the butterfly dome of Rotterdam. That'll probably sway me a bit more in Rotterdam's direction, buuut... I'll still wait and see for a couple more posts.

The arguments for Rotterdam's reptiles still doesn't fully convince me that they do better than Leipzig - mountain chicken and lesser Antillean iguana are nice species, but Leipzig has some nice herp species as well. I'm not trying to downplay Rotterdam's breeding efforts, but in this cup I'll let my vote depend on the experience I had/will get as a casual visitor; reptile breeding is something that mostly takes place behind the scenes, after all.

 

[Mr. Zootycoon]

I'm not trying to downplay Rotterdam's breeding efforts, but in this cup I'll let my vote depend on the experience I had/will get as a casual visitor; reptile breeding is something that mostly takes place behind the scenes, after all.

Well, not all of us are casual visitors. I think structured breeding attemps with endangered species are plus for Rotterdam. Until recently they had a special room visible for the public where reptiles were raised, drawing attention to the breeding efforts. This challenge does struck Rotterdam at a rather inconvenient time, as they plan to give their breeding efforts more attention again in the Oceanium.

Rotterdam's butterfly dome (Amazonia) is actually a marvellous building, but it does not stand out as much as it deserves because of the other great Dutch butterfly houses. A nice range of butterflies - among them some of my personal favourites, like Dryas julia and Colobura dirce - as well as stingless bees fly through the hall. Several species like the aformentioned C. dirce and Morpho polyphemus - both not the easiest species - reproduce naturally in the hall. They also hand out posters for visitors that show some of the butterfly species present. And then of course there are the arapaimas, anacondas, several turtle species and poison dart frogs.

The Oceanium is nice, but indeed not that spectacular - especially when the sea birds and penguins aren't counted. However the public lab is also a rather underappreciated part of the zoo. There are some great opportunies for everyone to learn about fish and marine inverts. Two great species on show there are a mantis shrimp and upside-down jellyfish, especially the former was among the highlights of my last visit. I've always been interested in invertebrates, but that creature was absolutely stunning.

I think that Rotterdam wins it on invertebrates. They both have the standard marine inverts, both have a few terrestrial arthropods (are the beetles gone from the Oceanium?). Leipzig has horseshoe crabs which is a plus, but they are no match for Rotterdam's butterfly dome.

Does Leipzig have a mantis shrimp by the way? Fantastic creatures they are!

 

[Dassie rat]

Reptiles
Both: Pancake, southern brown and radiated tortoises; Arrau river, McCord’s snake-necked, Mississippi map, spotted pond and Chinese stripe-necked turtles; mata-mata; Chinese crocodile and caiman lizards; common chuckwalla; green basilisk; gila monster; Komodo dragon; corn snake; Cuvier’s dwarf python; yellow anaconda;
Leipzig:Texas gopher and western hinge-backed tortoises; alligator snapping, Malaysian giant pond, Malaysian painted and yellow-spotted Amazon river, black-breasted leaf turtles, Central Vietnamese flowerback box, pig-nosed, spiny soft-shelled and common snake-necked turtles; Nicaraguan slider
Armadillo, Baja California rock, brown horn-headed, eastern garden, frill-necked, West African rainbow and blue spiny lizards; common green and Fiji banded iguanas; Cuban brown and Hispaniolan green anoles; Chinese water dragon; eyespot, mourning, Tokay, Williams electric blue and greater Madagascar and yellow-headed day geckos; common blue-tongued and prehensile-tailed skinks; Haitian giant galliwasp; wide-tailed zonosaur; panther chameleon; peach-throated monitor
Royal python; garden tree boa; green bush ratsnake; mangrove and Sinaloan milk snakes; ring-necked spitting cobra; broad-banded copperhead; horned adder; puff adder; Mexican land-headed rattlesnake
American alligator; dwarf crocodile; false gharial

Rotterdam: African spurred, common spider, elongated, Greek, Galapagos giant and angulated tortoises; Annam leaf, Ouachita and false map, Neotropical painted wood, spiny hill, green, hawksbill and Arrau river turtles; Chinese three-striped, south-east Asian, Zhou’s and McCord’s box turtles; red-eared and yellow-bellied sliders
Philippine sailfin and Sudan plated lizards; Hispaniolan rhinoceros, Utila spiny-tail and West Indian iguanas; Gillen’s pygmy mulga and lace monitors;
Burmese rock python; Cuban and emerald tree boas; California and scarlet king snakes: San Diego gopher, rhinoceros and common pine snakes; spectacled cobra
Nile (including western) and slender-snouted crocodiles

Amphibians
Both: Colorado River and spotted toads
Leipzig: African clawed, banded bull, green puddle, Maranon and spotted poison, Montserrat whistling, red-eared greenback, Sambava tomato, spotted reed, yellow stream and greenhouse frogs; little and black-spotted rock frogs; blue, green and black, yellow-banded and Golfodulcean poison dart frogs; Australian green, Cuban, file-eared, Mission golden-eyed, spot-legged, white-lipped and Chinese gliding tree frogs; golden mantella; marine and Great Plains toads
Rotterdam: Greater siren; Japanese fire-bellied newt
Sambava tomato frog; Dyeing dart frog; imitating poison dart frog; Brongersamas and common Indian toads; mountain chicken

Fish
Both: black, spinecheek and clown anemone fish; arapaima; tinfoil barb; , sunburst butterflyfish; Banggai cardinal fish; red-tail catfish; small-spotted catshark; yellowtail clownfish; pennant coral fish; whitetail damselfish; sixbar distochodus; redbelly yellowtail fusilier; spotted gar; goldline; longnose hawkfish; striped headstander; yellowhead jawfish; banded leporinus; clown loach; mandarin fish; silver moony; laced and zebra morays; opaleye; tiger oscar;pacu; palometa; royal panaque; red piranha; long-spine porcupine fish; swallowtail seaperch; sergeant-major; tricolor shark minnows; swell shark; sand smelt; ocean surgeon; Pacific sail-fin, palette and powder blue surgeonfish; yellowtail tang; Mozambique tilapia; bluestreak cleaner and sixline wrasses
Leipzig: Indian algae-eater; pink anemone fish; flame angel; Manacupuru, regal, freshwater, earspot, two-spined and emperor angelfish; two-striped aphyosemion; black arawana; Burmese, marble, spotted and banded archerfish; red line torpedo, filament, melon, African banded, yellow-eyed silver, Tambrapami, spotscale, ticto and bandula barbs; harlequin bass; peach fairy basslet; orbicular batfish; blue, Penang and howong bettas; grey, ornate and armoured bichirs; Congo blackfin; tompot blenny; dwarf and redtail botias; bowfin; brown bullhead; freshwater, bluecheek, pyramid and copperband butterflyfish
King of the mullets and threadfin cardinal fish; longnose Nilem carp; popeye catalufa; porthole, whiptail, leopard, ghost, flagtail, bristlenose, butter, giraffe, blotched, Raphael ,ripsaw, porthole and giant upside-down, Thailand giant, three-striped glass, spotted talking, whiptail and Adolfs catfish; gar and darter characins; cherubfish; firemouth, orange and black-and-gold chromide; spiny chromis; pearl, Nyereres, moga, midas, many-spotted, sardine, lionhead, Kotsovato, jewel, humphead, red devil, Jack Dempsey, Salvines, sandhill dwarf, ring-tailed pike, Kenyi, redhead, featherfin, blue neon, purple, ram, black diamond, blackgill Tanganyikan, cockatoo, snail , spotted damba, slender buffalo, wolf and aurora cichlids; Red Sea, tomato and Sebas clownfish; blue-eyed cochliodon; painted comber; Ceylonese combtail; comet; Sterbas, skunk and bronze corydoras; cowfish; ornate-banded, tailspot and spotted ctenopomas; pinstripe damba; chrome, cloudy, bluestreak and blue green damselfish; giant and rosy danios; azure and Talbots demoiselles; dinghani; discus fish; long-snout, shark-tailed distochodus; marbled dragonet
Caete, redhump, Suriname and high-head earth-eaters; orange-barred and spotted garden eels; electric eel; snorkel elephant fish; Malawi eyebiter; bristle-tail file fish; fire eel; barred flagtail; blue flash; wide-eyed flounder; grey and silver flying foxes; four-eyed fish; foxface
Cuban gar; black ghost; sixspot and maiden gobies; blue-tailed and butterfly goodeids; giant, pearl, kissing, three-spotted and giant redfin gouramis; royal gramma; miniatus, clown and blue & yellow groupers; purple-spotted and Australian spotted gudgeon; pointed-nosed guitarfish
Celebes halfbeak; blue & yellow and spindle haps; mountain hardyhead; spotfin, spotted and marbled hatchetfish; red-spotted hawkfish; many-banded headstander; red tail hemiodus; hump-head; jewel fish and blue neon jewel fish; least killifish African knifefish; rock kribensis;
Longfin labio; Malayan and Amazon leaffish; three-spot leporinus; blackbelly, Tiburon and Perugias limias; red lionfish; merry widow livebearer; hillstream, great spotted, half-banded, Chinese golden zebra, Burma border, Burmese, banded tiger, skunk, zebra and almorha loaches; Australian, South American and West African lungfish
Scrapermouth and zebra mbunas; Vietnamese mountain and stone-lapping minnows; Gills and sailfin mollies; ribbon moray; Nigeria mormyrid; black band myleus; Atlantic mudskipper; flathead grey mullet; zebra obliquidens; golden otoclinus; pacupeba; common, striped and red Madagascar panchaxes; Nile and climbing perches; blotched picarel; Australian and Japanese pineapple fish; southern platyfish; lyre-tail, common, zebra, gold spotted and chocolate plecos; silver prochilodus; eyespot pufferfish; Valentins and false puffers; pumpkinseed
Lake Eacham, Murray River, Lake Kutubu, Parkinsons, Boesemans, McCullochs, western and barred rainbow fish; blackline and harlequin rasboras; razorfish; pearly razorfish; blotched fantail ray; redfish; Daisy's ricefish
Malawi sand diver; speckled sandperch; Silver scat; small red and weedy scorpionfish; pot-bellied seahorse; common severum; harlequin, giant black, redtail and rainbow shark minnows; blacktip reef, Japanese bullhead, brown-banded bamboo and epaulette sharks; rainbow shiner; spotted silver dollar; red-tailed silverside; African and emperor snakeheads; mangrove red snapper; pinecone soldierfish; barred sorubim; barhead spinefoot; redtail splitfin; black marbled, highfin spotted, Malawi and angel squeakers; crown squirrelfish; three-spined stickleback; smooth-back river stingray; stripey; beluga, Siberian and Russian sturgeon; sultan fish; orange-spot, Sohal and yellowfin surgeonfish; green swordtail; Brichards many-spotted, large-eyed synodontis.
Emperor, yellow and Atlantic blue tangs; red phantom, longfin, Orange Bolivia lemon, lemon, Borks blue, firehead, false silver, ember, blind cave, Congo, Mexican, cardinal, peon, green neon, true big-scale, yellowtail. stoplight and black tetras; silver tigerfish; zebra and spotted tilapias; trevally; goldenorange-lined triggerfish; treefish; spotted trumpetfish; tucan fish; shortfin turkeyfish; bignose unicornfish; chameleon whiptail; Japanese wobbegong;
Rotterdam: Greater amberjack; Bermuda, queen, French, grey and orangeback angelfish; arowana; barjack; great barracuda; orbicular batfish; bicolour blenny; boarfish; yellow boxfish; Atlantic bumper; bank and big longnose, reef, spotfin and longsnout butterfly fish; cabezon; North African and spotted sailfin suckermouth catfish; blue chromis; Bermuda sea chub; Atlantic cod; garibaldi and giant damselfish; goldtail demoiselle; striped doctorfish; common dragonet; European eel; European eelpout; elegant firefish; longnose gar; yellow goatfish; blackeye, sand, fire, twin-spot and Okinawa gobies; sea goldie; masked and kelp greenlings; black, gag, giant and Nassau groupers; bluestriped grunt; blackchin guitarfish; Endlers guppy; tub gurnard; Atlantic and false herrings; Spanish hogfish; horse-eye and Crevalle jacks; ladyfish; lookdown; Atlantic horse and Atlantic mackerels; black margate; laced, giant and spotted morays; thicklip grey mullet; nursehound; butterfly peacock fish; pile perch; permit; South American pilchard; European plaice; pollack; sheepshead porgy; porkfish; pouting; Caribbean sharpnose puffer; cownose, thornback and small-eyed rays; yellowtail reeffish; Canary rockfish; blue runner; spotted scat; shorthorn sculpin; European seabass; common, white, gilthead and common two-banded seabreams; lined and short-snouted seahorses; common bluestripe and swallowtail seaperch; scissortail sergeant; Atlantic nurse, blacknose, leopard, sandbar, horn and blacktip sharks; California sheephead; big-scale sand smelt; common smoothhound; sailfin, yellowtail and grey snappers; longspine snipefish; common snook; common sole; tiger sorubim; common, southern, white-blotched and ocellate river stingrays; European sea sturgeon; sunshine fish; clown, elongate, razor and convict surgeonfish; oriental sweetlips; twotone tang; Atlantic tarpon; common African tigerfish; Nile tilapia; black triggerfish; rainbow trout; tube-snout; turbot; bluespine unicornfish; whiting; Ballan, Cortez rainbow, East Atlantic peacock and cuckoo wrasses

Leipzig wins this one on the size and variety of its species, although Rotterdam has a couple of urodeles.