ZooChat Cup - rebooted

TeaLovingDave said:
Quite apart from the fact that you have exaggerated the distances involved in several of the above cases, even WITH the exaggerated distances most would not take an hour to drive between the two :p but we're getting off the point.
For the record.....
Antwerp - Planckendael: 16 miles, 33 minutes
Edinburgh - HWP: 116 miles, 139 minutes
London - Whipsnade: 31 miles, 43 minutes
San Diego - SD Safari: 31 miles, 39 minutes
Zoo Berlin - TP Berlin: 8 miles, 28 minutes
Bronx - Central Park: 7.5 miles, 22 minutes
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I did NOT exaggerate! I listed the miles reported by Google Maps, but this is often the driving mileage, not "as the crow flies" mileage. As for your driving times above, those are under ideal traffic conditions. I'm pretty sure that heavy traffic in London, Berlin, NYC, or San Diego would usually push those driving times to an hour or more.

Chlidonias said:
Why is everyone talking about miles? We're not living in the Middle Ages!
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I started with kilometers, but then realized that a large number (most?) of ZooChatters are either from the UK or USA.

Consider this as an alternative question: What if we were debating what are the best theme parks in the world? Would we just consider Florida's Walt Disney World as a whole, or would WDW's 4 separate theme parks be considered separately? Most of the lists I've seen of this topic have just said "Disney World". That is, honestly, the way I see Singapore's 3 zoos. Singapore is the Disney World of zoos!
 
I've personally never met anyone who considers all four Disney parks as one park..

EDIT: Also Google does not give driving distances that line up with all the claimed distances.

~Thylo
 
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ANyhuis said:
I did NOT exaggerate! I listed the miles reported by Google Maps, but this is often the driving mileage, not "as the crow flies" mileage.
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So did I :p which is why I got the same results as you for one or two examples, and how I know the others were padded out!
 
An interesting situation to compare Singapore Zoo and its two neighbours with might be Berlin Zoologischer Garten and its Aquarium - In the past ZooChat Cups the aquarium has always been seen as a very important part of the zoo, but does this really represent the reality? Both the zoo and the aquarium can be visited either individually or as a combined visit for a larger price (very similarly to the Singaporean zoos), have a clear geographic boundary between the two collections but are located right next to each other (very similarly to the Singaporean zoos) and the interaction between managements of Berlin's Zoo and Aquarium will likely not be very dissimilar from that of those in Singapore - working together to reach a bigger goal, but still curating very different parts of different collections that have little to do with each other.

I don't know if there's a more "official" way to find out if the Berlin and/or Singapore collections are being treated by authorities to be one entity or multiple entities, but without this information I'd find it illogical to justify combining Berlin Zoo and Berlin Aquarium into one and splitting Singapore Zoo and its two neighbours into multiple...
 
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Vision said:
I don't know if there's a more "official" way to find out if the Berlin and/or Singapore collections are being treated by authorities to be one entity or multiple entities, but without this information I'd find it illogical to justify combining Berlin Zoo and Berlin Aquarium into one and splitting Singapore Zoo and its two neighbours into multiple...
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I don't know about Singapore, but I believe Zoo Berlin and the Aquarium have a single ZIMS entry.
 
Vision said:
An interesting situation to compare Singapore Zoo and its two neighbours with might be Berlin Zoologischer Garten and its Aquarium - In the past ZooChat Cups the aquarium has always been seen as a very important part of the zoo, but does this really represent the reality? Both the zoo and the aquarium can be visited either individually or as a combined visit for a larger price (very similarly to the Singaporean zoos), have a clear geographic boundary between the two collections but are located right next to each other (very similarly to the Singaporean zoos) and the interaction between managements of Berlin's Zoo and Aquarium will likely not be very dissimilar from that of those in Singapore - working together to reach a bigger goal, but still curating very different parts of different collections that have little to do with each other.

I don't know if there's a more "official" way to find out if the Berlin and/or Singapore collections are being treated by authorities to be one entity or multiple entities, but without this information I'd find it illogical to justify combining Berlin Zoo and Berlin Aquarium into one and splitting Singapore Zoo and its two neighbours into multiple...
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This is a difficult subject, I think however there is one major dividing difference. The Aquarium in Berlin has an entrance directly into the zoo, which means you can enter the aquarium from the zoo multiple times a day on the same ticket. In Singapore you have to actually exit one park, to access another, which means that a combination ticket really gives you 3 separate entries. To me that makes all the difference as this makes Zoo - Aquarium Berlin one zoo, as it can be visited as one, whereas the Singapore collections really are 3 separate from a visitors perspective...
 
lintworm said:
This is a difficult subject, I think however there is one major dividing difference. The Aquarium in Berlin has an entrance directly into the zoo, which means you can enter the aquarium from the zoo multiple times a day on the same ticket. In Singapore you have to actually exit one park, to access another, which means that a combination ticket really gives you 3 separate entries. To me that makes all the difference as this makes Zoo - Aquarium Berlin one zoo, as it can be visited as one, whereas the Singapore collections really are 3 separate from a visitors perspective...
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I considered advancing this argument myself, but I decided it wasn't really that major. As a hypothetical, imagine that WRS did put in an internal gate that allowed visitors with combo tickets to move between the Zoo and River Safari. Your line of reasoning would fall apart, and yet the actual situation on the ground would have seen really no significant change. Certainly the collections wouldn't be managed any differently.
 
FunkyGibbon said:
I considered advancing this argument myself, but I decided it wasn't really that major. As a hypothetical, imagine that WRS did put in an internal gate that allowed visitors with combo tickets to move between the Zoo and River Safari. Your line of reasoning would fall apart, and yet the actual situation on the ground would have seen really no significant change. Certainly the collections wouldn't be managed any differently.
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I do not think the hypothetical situation you propose is realistic and as it is not currently on the table I don't think it should be considered, but you are correct it is a very fine line... I think this game is about visitor perspective, not about management, several examples have been given of zoos that are (partly) under joint management and nobody here would argue that Tierpark Berlin and Zoo Berlin should be joined for this game. The only main difference between them and the Singaporean collections is one of distance (and possibly in degree of integrated management).
 
lintworm said:
I do not think the hypothetical situation you propose is realistic and as it is not currently on the table I don't think it should be considered, but you are correct it is a very fine line... I think this game is about visitor perspective, not about management, several examples have been given of zoos that are (partly) under joint management and nobody here would argue that Tierpark Berlin and Zoo Berlin should be joined for this game. The only main difference between them and the Singaporean collections is one of distance (and possibly in degree of integrated management).
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We can agree to call this common ground.:)
I do think that once the new bird park and the rainforest park open up it will make more sense to consider the whole Mandai site as a single zoo for the purpose of this kind of game, since everything will be more integrated with accomodation and internal buses and so on. Not to mention the fact that the Rainforest Park will be divided into two parts that are geographically distinct.
 
Time for some belated housekeeping before getting started:

- After carefully considering the debate about Singapore above, I have decided to change course and consider the Zoo, River Safari and Night Safari - but NOT Jurong Bird Park - as one collection for Cup purposes. I was swayed by the comparison between Singapore’s proximity to each other and ticketing structure to Berlin Zoo & Aquarium: I can’t think of a logical answer for why I would accept the two parts of Berlin and not also do the same in Singapore. However, Jurong is excluded on the basis that it is in a different location and cannot realistically be included with a visit to the other three in a single day.

- I’ve prevaricated a lot over the roster of US zoos to include, but have finally settled on a group of 13. I do expect this to be controversial and I apologise to anybody who is disappointed by the selections, but please do remember this is just a game.

There were certain zoos that picked themselves, of course: Bronx, the San Diego’s, Omaha, St Louis and Columbus. After that I had to carefully weigh both the reputations of a gaggle of about 12 relatively evenly-balanced zoos with the need to ensure all zoos will have at least a smattering of ZooChatters who have visited and can give first-hand reasons for voting the way they do. As such, I landed on including Dallas, Denver, Detroit, Miami, North Carolina and Woodland Park, but reluctantly excluded Sedgwick County, which I thought was just a touch too remote to work in this competition.

The 13th spot goes to Los Angeles. An eyebrow raiser for some, I’m sure, but LA receives frequent ZooChat traffic purely by virtue of its location in America’s second city, and I think it earns its inclusion from its surprise 3rd place finish in @pachyderm pro’s North American Cup last year.

- In a bid to further foster debate, I’m planning to tag a small number of people in each thread who I know have visited one of the zoos in question. Consider this a not-so-subtle nudge to get involved and help your fellow ZooChatters make their decisions. If you don’t want me tagging you feel free to let me know here or in private messages and I will cease and desist.

- Last time I had a strict timeframe of 2 days for each match, but unfortunately that meant the finish times depended on when I had time to post each thread. This time, with a mix of European, American and Asia-Pacific zoos, I am going to have varying time periods for each contest. I will aim to post them in the evening, Australian time, but I will endeavour to time them so that matches between two zoos from the same region conclude during peak online hours (ie, circa 10PM) for that part of the world. Matches that involve zoos from two different regions will be timed to conclude at one of the two relevant time zones, based on a coin toss. The exception to this will be when the final two matches of the group are taking place: these will have identical finish times to discourage strategic voting.

(I’m not sure I’ve explained that very well but I promise it will make sense soon).
 
And a little more housekeeping. Would you like to see the draw? Yes? Alright then.

All of these were determined using a random list generator, without any seedings being put in place:

Group A
Los Angeles
Munich
North Carolina
Vienna

Group B
Berlin Zoo
Detroit
San Diego Zoo Safari Park
Wroclaw

Group C
Columbus
Plzen
Rotterdam
Singapore

Group D
Beauval
Frankfurt
San Diego Zoo
St Louis

Group E
Cologne
Denver
Miami
Pairi Daiza

Group F
Antwerp
Bronx
Leipzig
Zurich

Group G
Berlin Tierpark
Burgers
Taronga
Woodland Park

Group H
Chester
Dallas
Omaha
Prague
 
Glad to see North Carolina made it onto this list. Might not have as large a collection as some on this list, but its exhibit quality/size is definitely one of the best :)
 
Zoos I Have Visited that are In the Cup (organized by group: years visited in brackets):

Group A:
North Carolina (2015)
Group B:
Detroit (2009, 2011)
San Diego Zoo Safari Park (2019)
Group C:
Columbus (2009, 2011)
Group D:
San Diego Zoo (2019)
Group E:
Cologne (2017)
Pairi Daiza (2017)
Group F:
Antwerp (2017)
Bronx (2014)
Group G:
Taronga (2012)
Group H:
None visited

I think this may make @CGSwans ' life a little easier.
 
I'd like to thank @CGSwans for this ZooChat Cup and I plan to be an active participant. Due in no small part to my never-ending European jaunt, I've now visited 23 out of the 32 'world's best zoos'. Not too shabby for a Canadian! I've been to the Australian selection (Taronga - in 2007), all 13 of the American zoos, and 9 out of the 17 European zoos.

The 9 zoos that I've never visited out of the 32 finalists are: Singapore, Munich, Leipzig, Vienna, Plzen, Prague, Beauval, Wroclaw and Chester.

As far as your U.S. choices, I'd say that the pair of top-tier zoos that probably just missed the cut would be Sedgwick County and Houston. The two mild surprises would be Detroit and Los Angeles. That latter zoo has plans to bulldoze/revamp/overhaul almost 50% of the zoo in the next Master-Plan, but the rare species there are a highlight and it has had tons of visits from zoo nerds and thus I can understand why you added it in as the last choice. I really like Detroit for many reasons, and that's cool it made the cut even though it must have been one of the last selections as well. Sedgwick County is really the only major omission, but you acknowledged that right away and so...c'est la vie!

This whole thing will be for fun and I'm excited to see how it all works out. In many ways the competition comes down to the luck of the draw. As at every World Cup tournament, there is always a 'Group of Death'. In the ZooChat Cup I think if I had to choose I'd give that honour to Group D. There lies possibly the world's greatest zoo (San Diego), a Top 5 U.S. zoo (Saint Louis), France's best zoo (Beauval) and one of Germany's best zoos (Frankfurt). Yikes!
 
snowleopard said:
As at every World Cup tournament, there is always a 'Group of Death'. In the ZooChat Cup I think if I had to choose I'd give that honour to Group D.
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I personally think that Group H is the definitive group of death. Best zoo in the UK, potentially the best zoo in the whole of Eastern Europe, arguably the best zoo in the US (Depending on who you ask... ;) ), and Dallas, which is also a contender as well! Definitely worse than Group C in my opinion! ;) :p
 
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For the record....

Group A
Los Angeles
Munich
North Carolina
Vienna

Group B
Berlin Zoo
Detroit
San Diego Zoo Safari Park
Wroclaw

Group C
Columbus
Plzen
Rotterdam
Singapore

Group D
Beauval
Frankfurt
San Diego Zoo
St Louis

Group E
Cologne
Denver
Miami
Pairi Daiza

Group F
Antwerp
Bronx
Leipzig
Zurich

Group G
Berlin Tierpark
Burgers
Taronga
Woodland Park

Group H
Chester
Dallas
Omaha
Prague
 
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