ZooChat Cup - rebooted

I should think it will be unstoppable at that point. You may as well just call the Cups off completely.

I wouldn’t be so sure of that. It would defeat all comers on birds - probably only San Diego and Berlin among this year’s participants would keep the margin respectable - and it would be very strong on ectotherms and primates. It would be highly competitive on miscellaneous mammals but would need to draw good opponents for carnivores and ungulates. Clearly a very dangerous opponent, but not unbeatable.

Besides which - as will be discussed in greater detail shortly - you need to be competitive in more metrics besides taxonomic categories.

Dvur Kralove - average to good exhibits, some interesting developments happening... the question is how big of a handicap "Africa-only" policy is.

It’s disqualifying under the current format, unfortunately.
 
Dvur Kralove - average to good exhibits, some interesting developments happening... the question is how big of a handicap "Africa-only" policy is.

It’s disqualifying under the current format, unfortunately.

I don't necessarily think this need be the case; going by ZTL and my notes from a recent visit there's a pretty rounded collection - with fewer shortfalls category-wise than some of the Cup challengers.

Primates - 13 taxa
Carnivores - 19 taxa
Hoofstock - 45 taxa
Misc Mammals - 15 taxa
Birds - c.150 taxa
Ectotherms - c.140 taxa
 
I don't necessarily think this need be the case; going by ZTL and my notes from a recent visit there's a pretty rounded collection - with fewer shortfalls category-wise than some of the Cup challengers.

Primates - 13 taxa
Carnivores - 19 taxa
Hoofstock - 45 taxa
Misc Mammals - 15 taxa
Birds - c.150 taxa
Ectotherms - c.140 taxa

Yes - For example San Diego ZSP with its 2 primates...
 
I don't necessarily think this need be the case; going by ZTL and my notes from a recent visit there's a pretty rounded collection - with fewer shortfalls category-wise than some of the Cup challengers.

Primates - 13 taxa
Carnivores - 19 taxa
Hoofstock - 45 taxa
Misc Mammals - 15 taxa
Birds - c.150 taxa
Ectotherms - c.140 taxa

3gjtot.jpg
 

Exciting!
What about zoos like Chester with virtually no North American animals? That would be pretty hard on them... Almost all of the zoos in the cup have South American, African and Asian areas, with most having Oceanian areas, but very few European zoos have comprehensive North American zones and vice versa... (in fact I don't know of any North American zoos with European zones, probably because the fauna involved is very similar, just smaller in Europe... :))
 
I guess people who post exhibit pictures in each thread won't like you much after this change :D

I’m not sure that’s a problem. Maybe the range of relevant pictures increases a little, but I don’t think it’s meaningfully more difficult to collect images of, say, elephant, giraffe, lion, gorilla and mandrill enclosures than it is to dig up hyena, tiger, jaguar, otter and sloth bear ones.

Exciting!
What about zoos like Chester with virtually no North American animals? That would be pretty hard on them... Almost all of the zoos in the cup have South American, African and Asian areas, with most having Oceanian areas, but very few European zoos have comprehensive North American zones and vice versa... (in fact I don't know of any North American zoos with European zones, probably because the fauna involved is very similar, just smaller in Europe... :))

On it.

There’s one big difference to how a group focused on geographic, rather than taxonomic categories will work. While there are seven continents (at least as conventionally understood - Europe isn’t really separate from Asia other than politically, but I digress), I’ve spent the last little while thinking about how those potential categories function in the game and have concluded only five will really work:

- Africa and Asia are pretty self-explanatory.

- Central America fits better with South, not North America based on the types of species that live there, so the third category is ‘South and Central America’. Caribbean islands also belong here.

- North America and Europe, as Amur Leopard notes, aren’t categories that often cross the pond. A European zoo drawing ‘Europe’ against an American zoo will win by default, and vice-versa. Luckily, the species line-ups are broadly similar so North America and Europe will form a combined category, allowing zoos from both continents to be meaningfully compared.

- Australia, eccentric as we are, forms only a marginal component of most overseas zoos. To ensure there’s plenty to talk about, I’m creating a more or less artificial category combining Australia, Antarctica and ‘Island endemics’. Species from Madagascar, oceanic islands, New Zealand and Indonesia east of the Wallace Line - essentially, all the places where evolution got a little wacky - will all fit here.

I’ve gone back and forth a little on how to treat large, recently-formed islands such as Sri Lanka, Sumatra, Borneo, Java and Japan: I initially wanted to treat them as fitting into both of Asia *and* the island category, but I’ve ultimately landed on assigning them to one or the other: hence they don’t appear on the list above. The same applies in reverse: Madagascar, for instance, does not form part of Africa. Sorry Zurich, but Masoala only counts once.

I won’t claim my knowledge of geography is perfect enough to make all of these calls in advance, but as a general guide qualifying for this category requires that fauna on the island in question differs significantly from the nearest continent.

One last note. Because there are only five categories, not six, the first two matches in each group will share one category: after that, the other four categories will each appear once.
 
I’ve spent the last little while thinking about how those potential categories function in the game and have concluded only five will really work:

Weren't you thinking about using the concept of zoogeographical zones? Although that would bring the problem with N.America-Europe disbalance...
 
Weren't you thinking about using the concept of zoogeographical zones? Although that would bring the problem with N.America-Europe disbalance...

They are zoogreographic, they’re just consolidated a little for the sake of game mechanics.
 
I’m not sure that’s a problem. Maybe the range of relevant pictures increases a little, but I don’t think it’s meaningfully more difficult to collect images of, say, elephant, giraffe, lion, gorilla and mandrill enclosures than it is to dig up hyena, tiger, jaguar, otter and sloth bear ones.

I second that :)
You still have to run through the gallery looking for photos, there isn't much of a faster to way to do it. Species lists on the other hand... :p
 
One last little note before we get started. One of the luxuries of not having planned a second group stage at the beginning is that I had a certain degree of flexibility in determining how the groups would be formed.

I modelled three different formats, with the primary intention of avoiding having entirely European groups: I think having intercontinental matches is a good thing. This is the model that achieved it:

Group A: A1, B1, G2, H2 - Munich, Wroclaw, Berlin TP, Omaha
Group B: A2, B2, G1, H1 - Vienna, Berlin, Taronga, Chester
Group C: C1, D1, E2, F2 - Rotterdam, Beauval, Denver, Bronx
Group D: C2, D2, E1, F1 - Plzen, San Diego, Cologne, Zurich
 
Group A: A1, B1, G2, H2 - Munich, Wroclaw, Berlin TP, Omaha
Group B: A2, B2, G1, H1 - Vienna, Berlin, Taronga, Chester
Group C: C1, D1, E2, F2 - Rotterdam, Beauval, Denver, Bronx
Group D: C2, D2, E1, F1 - Plzen, San Diego, Cologne, Zurich

This is so exciting! Bring it on. Group of death? Probably Group D but both C and B are quite hard...
 
Unless they draw Oceanian animals against a really good zoo and then somehow win against a less good zoo in another category (perhaps Africa vs Cologne?).

I think there’s a very narrow path that basically consists of running up the score in the Australia Plus category, then trying to contain the damage, hope another zoo wins all three matches and sneak in on percentage.

Note that I haven’t yet drawn the categories so have no idea how plausible that is.

This is so exciting! Bring it on. Group of death? Probably Group D but both C and B are quite hard...

I think there’s underdogs in all of Groups A, B and C: Group D is wildly unpredictable.
 
I think there’s a very narrow path that basically consists of running up the score in the Australia Plus category, then trying to contain the damage, hope another zoo wins all three matches and sneak in on percentage.

Note that I haven’t yet drawn the categories so have no idea how plausible that is.



I think there’s underdogs in all of Groups A, B and C: Group D is wildly unpredictable.

Denver doesn't have much of a chance admittedly in Group C. They have a strong-ish collection in Asia and Africa but they have a pretty poor South American area and not much in the way of Oceanian animals.
Taronga is sadly virtually sunk unless they are extremely lucky :(
And Munich has a rather outside chance of getting through, but you never know. Is it top two zoos in each pool that go through?
 
Important Cup business:

I realise that two matches are still underway, but ahead of tomorrow’s Group D kick-off I want to talk through the theory and intention behind the geographic categories, and how we can think about them in a way that makes the most of the game.

Up to now, the debates have focused far too much on trying to define (and in some cases re-define) what we are talking about: in other words, we’re focusing on the process, not on the substance.

I get it - people instinctively want clear and definitive categories so that they can compile a species list and work from there. To an extent I can help with that (and I’m about to give some further guidance), but only to an extent: this format *is* more subjective and that’s actually deliberate. Being comfortable with subjectivity is going to be very important: in the format that follows geographic categories, you will not necessarily 100% agree with others about what is and isn’t in scope. So I’m trying to push you a little now.

My advice is to not get *too* hung up on the categories. They are supposed to provide a broad framework for an otherwise very open-ended debate. In a way, by debating back and forth whether a species ‘should’ count, what you’re really doing is debating my thoughts and not your own, because what you’re trying to resolve is where I think Europe ends and Asia begins. The category is just supposed to be a jumping off point, not the point in itself.

So, here’s a few clarifying points that can hopefully help us dispense with the process debates and move on to far more interesting things.
  • The boundaries between the different geographic categories are now set and final: I was happy to replace the Wallace line with the Weber line (I’ll confess, I had not heard of the Weber line until yesterday), but I’m not going to continue revisiting and revising. The excellent map created by Amur Leopard should be considered authoritative, with the additional note that Antarctica is part of the Australia and Islands category. I recognise that there are anomalies like hutias, but that’s ok. The game design is robust enough to cope.
  • I am not going to make a blanket ruling on vagrant and introduced species, because there are dimensions where that conversation could be interesting, and I don’t want to stop interesting debates. Is including dromedaries in an Australian exhibit just a cheat’s way of padding out a collection, or does it instead reflect something important about the state of Australian fauna? That’s not for me to decide. The same applies to vagrant species. This isn’t to say that I won’t *ever* step in and rule something out of scope, but unless I do you should consider that the topic is at least open for discussion.
  • As a general rule, if an exhibit is presented or generally understood as being accurate to a sub-specific level, then that should guide you as to where that exhibit is relevant. An Asiatic lion exhibit is relevant to Asia, not Africa. One potentially interesting asterisk here, though, is where a species is consciously being used as a placeholder for another species. For instance, does Elephant Odyssey count for ‘North America’? I will leave that for you to debate. Generic ‘zoo’ hybrids can be applied as you think appropriate.
  • Be open to considering the category across more dimensions than simply as a basket of eligible species and exhibits. Does one zoo represent ‘Africa’ better than the other? What role does cultural theming play, and what role *should* it play? Does it matter to you if a mixed exhibit is geographically inaccurate? If an exhibit had, say, guanaco mixed with fallow deer, then you can factor that exhibit into your thinking about South America from the perspective of how it functions as a guanaco exhibit. The fallow deer can’t be the subject in themselves, but how their presence influences the exhibit as a whole is potentially relevant. The same applies in reverse for North America and Europe, except you need to approach it from the fallow deer side.
I hope this helps. Feel free to ask for clarification if you need it, but I want people to feel free to put forward original and creative arguments and trust that I will step in if something veers too far off course. My default assumption is that an argument is being put in good faith, and so I’d rather people run with an idea than not.
 
FYI all - I have a rather horrifically busy few days ahead, culminating in giving the keynote speech at my best mate’s wedding on Saturday, and so I won’t be able to give the Cup the attention it deserves. We’ll resume on Sunday.

Enjoy!
 
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