ZooChat Cup S2 Match #5: Brookfield vs Miami

Miscellaneous Mammals

  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .
pachyderm pro

pachyderm pro

Well-Known Member
5+ year member
The old school Chicago classic against the modern Florida tropics. This time the rebranding of the former category known as small mammals will be the deciding factor on who wins, miscellaneous mammals. Brookfield has pangolins, elephant shrews, wombats and echidnas as well as two species of bat and two species of armadillo. Miami has tree kangaroos and an agouti upon others (I don't know enough about Miami to make a fair statement about its collection).

The concept behind this poll is explained here: ZooChat Cup Season 2

Tomorrow: Cleveland vs Oregon
 
pachyderm pro said:
The old school Chicago classic against the modern Florida tropics. This time the rebranding of the former category known as small mammals will be the deciding factor on who wins, miscellaneous mammals. Brookfield has pangolins, elephant shrews, wombats and echidnas as well as two species of bat and two species of armadillo. Miami has tree kangaroos and an agouti upon others (I don't know enough about Miami to make a fair statement about its collection).

The concept behind this poll is explained here: ZooChat Cup Season 2

Tomorrow: Cleveland vs Oregon
Click to expand...

I also don’t know much about Miami, but I believe Brookfield’s giant anteaters, prevost’s squirrels, rock hyraxes, kangaroos, and wallabies would be in the scope of this category.

Would dolphins fall in this category as well?
 
Dolphins are ungulates so they fall into the ungulate category.

@pachyderm pro maybe you shouldn't talk about the individual zoos' collections in your opening if you don't know enough about them both to make a fair introduction ;)

~Thylo
 
I don't know much about Miami, but here is a list of miscellaneous mammals at Brookfield:

On Exhibit:
Short-Beaked Echidna
Southern Hairy-Nosed Wombat
Western Gray Kangaroo
Bennett’s Wallaby
Black-And-Rufous Elephant Shrew
Tiny Screaming Hairy Armadillo
Giant Anteater
Hoffmann's Two-Toed Sloth
Rock Hyrax
Egyptian Fruit Bat
Rodrigues Flying Fox
Domestic Rabbit
Damaraland Mole Rat
Naked Mole Rat
African Crested Porcupine
Domestic Guinea Pig
Domestic Rat
Prevost's Squirrel
African White-bellied Pangolin

Off Exhibit:
Southern Three-Banded Armadillo
Southern Tamandua
 
For what it's worth, Miami has koalas, as well as tree kangaroos, New World fruit bats, and tamandua (I don't know if they are on exhibit there or not).

This is a good example of how the category can really decide the winner; if this match had been in Birds, Herps, or Ungulates it would have gone very differently. I was sort of hoping for a Primates match, as for these two zoos I think it would have generated quite a discussion.

In all honesty, I'm just impatiently waiting for a Herps or Primates match of any kind...
 
birdsandbats said:
Voting for Brookfield because of pangolins.
Click to expand...
You’re voting for a zoo that has facilitated the loss of many pangolins through irresponsible importation and cooperation with a rather shady (to say the least) animal dealer in order to do so.

This helpful post by DDCorvus explains the situation:
Several US zoos receive pangolins

Brookfield’s current pangolins are from two 2016 imports. They received several individuals, but about 1/4 imported individuals died. They had participated in earlier imports as well: all of which had 100% mortality rate.

Brookfield’s animals are “rescued” from Togo, ie they unfortunately wandered onto a farm and were captured. The animals were taken from the wild simply for moving about as they normally do. In turn, a horribly high percentage died, and there are now multiple farms in Togo which equate the capture of pangolins with money. In addition, this all filtered through Justin Miller, head of Pangolin Conservation. While their intents are honorable, his methods are disappointing: he has written off all Asian pangolins as too late to save, and rather than cooperating with zoos that already have established pangolin diets, he made his own. If one were to search around on the internet, has background isn’t exactly one of someone who is conscious of animal needs. And after he sees this, he’ll probably write me another email threatening me like he did the last time I posted something about him on this site. ;)
 
ThylacineAlive said:
I mean, that is what science tells us...
Click to expand...
...of course, and it also tells us this: If cetaceans are ungulates then birds are reptiles.

There are also other ways to classify animals is all I'm saying. Monophyletic taxonomy isn't necessarily always the most meaningful perspective.
 
jayjds2 said:
You’re voting for a zoo that has facilitated the loss of many pangolins through irresponsible importation and cooperation with a rather shady (to say the least) animal dealer in order to do so.

This helpful post by DDCorvus explains the situation:
Several US zoos receive pangolins

Brookfield’s current pangolins are from two 2016 imports. They received several individuals, but about 1/4 imported individuals died. They had participated in earlier imports as well: all of which had 100% mortality rate.

Brookfield’s animals are “rescued” from Togo, ie they unfortunately wandered onto a farm and were captured. The animals were taken from the wild simply for moving about as they normally do. In turn, a horribly high percentage died, and there are now multiple farms in Togo which equate the capture of pangolins with money. In addition, this all filtered through Justin Miller, head of Pangolin Conservation. While their intents are honorable, his methods are disappointing: he has written off all Asian pangolins as too late to save, and rather than cooperating with zoos that already have established pangolin diets, he made his own. If one were to search around on the internet, has background isn’t exactly one of someone who is conscious of animal needs. And after he sees this, he’ll probably write me another email threatening me like he did the last time I posted something about him on this site. ;)
Click to expand...
I am aware of this controversy, but from it sounds like on the thread, without evidence, we can't really prove any of it. Brookfield is certainly working hard to care for its pangolins, and just recently improved their exhibit.

If someone has an argument that makes me want to switch to Miami, go ahead. But already, BZ is winning this match by a landslide, and I bet you the presence of Phataginus tricuspis has something to do with that.
 
I'm not voting for Miami, because I don't know what Miami has (except for apparently the only pale spear-nosed bats in the country in quite an interesting enclosure).

However, I am voting against Brookfield, for reasons explored above. It is irresponsible and absurd for zoos to still be importing animals from the wild with such high mortality rate. There are ways to obtain pangolins from the wild responsively (look at Leipzig, Taiwan and Singapore), but trapping healthy individuals of a vulnerable species and effectively killing a large portion of them in an attempt to learn how to keep them, is not the way to do it. How wonderfully ironic that their new enclosure has a sign about "demand and decline" next to it... Also, it looks better now, but the enclosure the pangolin was originally in was way too small.
 
This is interesting.

After visiting Brookfield today, I had a chance to see an active tree pangolin and get some not so great photos. A point I will add in favor of the it, the zoo has done a great job getting the word about pangolins out to the public. Articles like this one back that up and as far as public knowledge goes, I have to had it to the zoo for the for making sure these animals were really publicized, despite the fact that it has brought a slight amount of negative press in their way. The enclosure was doubled in size at the beginning of the year and is perfectly adequate and functional.

Regarding Mr. Miller and his organization, I can't say I trust it. Obtaining them through the means they did was not all responsible. He also broke the if it ain't broke don't fix it rule by creating his own pangolin diet, when the ones used by the zoos mentioned above work just fine. It's a double edged sword really. There are both pros and cons to the 2016 import(s) and if you want to vote against Brookfield for doing, then that's perfectly fine. However, my vote will remain with Brookfield.

I also want to touch on @Coelacanth18 and his post. That's the beauty of the game, a far superior zoo (Miami) could lose to an inferior zoo (Brookfield) just because of one category. Miami has dozens of large open ungulate paddocks that would have guaranteed them the win. The Wings of the World aviary alone could likely beat Brookfield's entire bird collection. Primates would have been a very interesting one, as its a category that both zoos struggle in. Brookfield has keeps all but two of its primates indoors year round, and keeps all of their primates on hard concrete surfaces. Miami on the other hand has outdoor ape yards, but are all barren and are mostly void of climbing structures. I'm also happy to report that I did tomorrows drawing and one of the categories you wanted was chosen :).​
 
pachyderm pro said:
After visiting Brookfield today, I had a chance to see an active tree pangolin and get some not so great photos. A point I will add in favor of the it, the zoo has done a great job getting the word about pangolins out to the public. Articles like this one back that up and as far as public knowledge goes, I have to had it to the zoo for the for making sure these animals were really publicized, despite the fact that it has brought a slight amount of negative press in their way. The enclosure was doubled in size at the beginning of the year and is perfectly adequate and functional.
Click to expand...
Well, Thanos eliminated half of the universal population, but at least he told us we were in danger before he did so. Luckily, I’ll live to thank him.

didthanoskill.me
 
pachyderm pro said:
I'm also happy to report that I did tomorrows drawing and one of the categories you wanted was chosen :).
Click to expand...

Interesting. I don't know much about the herp or primate situation at either zoo, so it looks like I have more research ahead of me!
 
birdsandbats said:
I am aware of this controversy, but from it sounds like on the thread, without evidence, we can't really prove any of it. Brookfield is certainly working hard to care for its pangolins, and just recently improved their exhibit.

If someone has an argument that makes me want to switch to Miami, go ahead. But already, BZ is winning this match by a landslide, and I bet you the presence of Phataginus tricuspis has something to do with that.
Click to expand...

There is substantial evidence of this.

I think the presence of pangolins is really the only reason Brookfield is winning in such a landslide, just like the main argument for Minnesota was that they had monk seals. While keeping highly odd and endangered animals is certainly notable and sometimes deserving of a win, I find it a bit disturbing that the mere presence of an odd animal seems to be so much more important to so many people here than whether or not that animal is being properly cared for or if it were obtained in rather unethical ways...

I was going to vote for Brookfield myself at first due to the pangolins as well as the echidnas and wombats, but being reminded of the circumstances the pangolins were brought here under (and recounting some of the stories I've been told about this and the other more recent imports, as well as the methods I've heard Miller used to work out their diet) has led me to side more towards @Vision's stance. I'm certainly not against pangolins in captivity, or even taking endangered species from the wild in responsible ways, and I know the zoos keeping them have worked and are still working very hard to care for, breed, and conserve these animals, but I think this particular import was handled very poorly by the person in charge of it and while we shouldn't really condemn the zoos involved for that, it's certainly not something that should be forgotten or praised for.

I'm still not going to vote for Miami until someone can give me a species list or a convincing argument for them, though.

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
I'm still not going to vote for Miami until someone can give me a species list or a convincing argument for them, though.
Click to expand...
I think this is going to be a recurring problem in this competition. For Europe there is Zootierliste to provide insight. For the USA there is not anything even remotely similar. Europeans also travel widely for zoos so there are lots of forumers who will likely know both chosen zoos well in a European competition and can provide first-hand knowledge, whereas Americans (with exceptions) do not move around their country's zoos much. So a lot of the match-ups will probably come out as "Zoo A has great XYZ, but I don't know anything about Zoo B".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top