ZooChat Cup S2 Match #5: Brookfield vs Miami

Miscellaneous Mammals

  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .
As for Miami, they happen to be the only US zoo keeping and exhibiting pale spear-nosed bats. Strange how unique species seem to garner support only for more popular zoos...
They are kept in a unique enclosure that is the best I have seen for microbats. It is outdoors, and not artificially lit. Instead, it is split into two parts, each mesh-fronted and themed as a cave. The bats (three species: the spear-nosed bats, Seba's short-tailed fruit bats, and Jamaican fruit bats) can fly overhead visitors via a glass tube, allowing a clear view of them, which is hard to come by in zoos with traditional nocturnal houses.

Beyond that, the other exhibits for Miscellaneous Mammals in Amazon and Beyond are above average, with species such as red-rumped agouti, southern tamandua, and giant anteater. Elsewhere in the zoo there is a pair of Australian exhibtis (undergoing expansion) for Mastchie's tree kangaroo and koala. There is also a nice little aviary for Prevost's squirrel and golden pheasant, and an exhibit for African crested porcupine. The newest exhibit for an animal in this category is a great exhibit for raccoon in Florida: Mission Everglades. Overall, it has a smattering of nice exhibits throughout the zoo, some far better than others, but none bad.

Chlidonias said:
I think this is going to be a recurring problem in this competition. For Europe there is Zootierliste to provide insight. For the USA there is not anything even remotely similar. Europeans also travel widely for zoos so there are lots of forumers who will likely know both chosen zoos well in a European competition and can provide first-hand knowledge, whereas Americans (with exceptions) do not move around their country's zoos much. So a lot of the match-ups will probably come out as "Zoo A has great XYZ, but I don't know anything about Zoo B".
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Before this competition started, I considered doing some more research and becoming the American Dassie Rat, but with the lack of information available about some zoos (such as both that are competing tomorrow) it's not worth the effort.
 
Chlidonias said:
I think this is going to be a recurring problem in this competition. For Europe there is Zootierliste to provide insight. For the USA there is not anything even remotely similar. Europeans also travel widely for zoos so there are lots of forumers who will likely know both chosen zoos well in a European competition and can provide first-hand knowledge, whereas Americans (with exceptions) do not move around their country's zoos much. So a lot of the match-ups will probably come out as "Zoo A has great XYZ, but I don't know anything about Zoo B".
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This will indeed be a huge problem. I think the reason so many of us haven't been to as many zoos is it's harder to visit a whole bunch of the more well-known American collections in one trip than it is in Europe. I never even had Miami on my radar until this past year, now it's growing higher on my list of zoos to visit! I've been trying to go through and do research on the zoos I don't know much about as each challenge occurs but I'm a fairly busy individual so this is sometimes difficult.

~Thylo
 
I think this is still a really close one for me. Brookfield has a slightly better collection with wombat, echidna, and elephant-shrew (and obviously pangolin), but Miami has some very nice personal favorites of mine in tree-kangaroo, Prevost's Squirrel, and Jamaican Fruit-Bats. They're also the only holder of the spear-nosed bat whereas Brookfield isn't the only holder of any of their species. That bat exhibit definitely sounds fantastic, too, with all of Miami's enclosure seeming to be of general better quality than Brookfields. I think that last fact, along with the pangolin controversy just barely puts Miami over Brookfield for the win for me.

~Thylo
 
Chlidonias said:
So was I. There is a suspicion that Thanos simply doesn't like Zoochatters.
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Thanos spared me as well, so I don't think it's that ;)

Another point in favor of Miami is not just the bats they keep in their collection, but also what they do for native bats. The zoo assists wildlife agencies in doing research on Florida bonneted bats, as well as helping with medical treatment, rehab, and release of the bats. Additionally, the zoo has over 30 bat boxes installed on their grounds.

This, in addition to being reminded about the pale spear-nosed bats, is enough to tip my vote over to Miami, although it's definitely a close call.
 
Before Visions argument Miami was down and losing by a landslide, but overnight now the zoo is just a vote shy of beating Brookfield. This proves that just one argument to sway people to your side can change the game of the match.
 
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After spending some time studying the various zoo websites, plus re-reading through this informative thread, I've decided to change my vote from Brookfield to Miami. I visited both zoos back in 2008 but Zoo Miami edges this very close category.
 
In regards to the pangolin debate: for those of you whose vote was affected by your stance on that situation, keep in mind that two other zoos in this competition, Columbus and Memphis, also received pangolins from the same source.
 
If the two zoos tie or Brookfield pulls ahead (Miami is winning by 1 currently), it should be noted that one of the members who voted for Brookfield has zero posts and did not provide an explanation for their vote. So if that is not provided by the time the poll closes, then the rules state that vote should be discounted.
 
I'm voting for Brookfield because of their wide variety of species. While their unfortunate past is disappointing, no zoo is perfect
 
BigNate said:
I'm voting for Brookfield because of their wide variety of species. While their unfortunate past is disappointing, no zoo is perfect
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I agree that no zoo is perfect, but not many zoos take animals out of the wild, knowing full well that some of these animals will perish quickly. I would also argue that this is not an issue of the past, Brookfield still keeps Pangolins that we’re exported from the wild.

I would suggest reading the posts by @Vision and @jayjds2, they do a good job of summarizing this issue.
 
TZDugong said:
...but not many zoos take animals out of the wild, knowing full well that some of these animals will perish quickly.
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Whilst I obviously don't want any animals to die I think this is over simplifying things. If we go back 60 years then animals like gorillas and elephants were hard to sustain in captivity, now we have the problem of surplus males. By the "none from the wild" logic, we'd have no elephants or gorillas left by now. I've stated before that pangolins are in an extremely bad place right now, I support zoos trying to crack their husbandry whilst they still have the chance to.

And yes, I know Mr Miller has his own spin on pangolin diets which are different to Leipzig and Taipei but he's dealing with African pangolins whilst the others are Chinese, maybe (I say maybe as I'm not an expert!) they can't have the same diet?
 
I had a response but @Brum seems to have covered it. I will add though, animals have to be taken out of the wild, right? Otherwise inbreeding would occur and we wouldn't be doing the species any help. While i agree that more than 1/4 should have survived. Its possible it was conditions that couldn't be controlled.

Nevertheless, while this absolutely makes the choice between these zoos harder, I still have to go with Brookfield.
 
BigNate said:
I'm voting for Brookfield because of their wide variety of species. While their unfortunate past is disappointing, no zoo is perfect
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This isn't an issue of their past, this is an issue of their present.

I do agree with @Brum and personally I do support trying to keep pangolins in captivity in general. I understand that we lose some here and there in the attempt to learn how to save them, and I know all the zoos involved are working very hard and care very much. I want to make this perfectly clear: I am not against pangolins in captivity or their import from the wild, I am against Miller and his methods of obtaining and keeping pangolins as well as other species he's worked with in the past.

~Thylo
 
Brum said:
Whilst I obviously don't want any animals to die I think this is over simplifying things. If we go back 60 years then animals like gorillas and elephants were hard to sustain in captivity, now we have the problem of surplus males. By the "none from the wild" logic, we'd have no elephants or gorillas left by now. I've stated before that pangolins are in an extremely bad place right now, I support zoos trying to crack their husbandry whilst they still have the chance to.

And yes, I know Mr Miller has his own spin on pangolin diets which are different to Leipzig and Taipei but he's dealing with African pangolins whilst the others are Chinese, maybe (I say maybe as I'm not an expert!) they can't have the same diet?
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I don’t disagree that there should be pangolins in captivity, I just think the route taken to acquire these resulted in a lot of unnecessary deaths. The problem is that Miller “cracked” a husbandry that didn’t need to be. The San Diego Zoo kept the same species of pangolin and set the longevity record for it, but instead of approach them for help, Miller tried to do it on his own, and several zoos followed suit.
BigNate said:
I had a response but @Brum seems to have covered it. I will add though, animals have to be taken out of the wild, right? Otherwise inbreeding would occur and we wouldn't be doing the species any help. While i agree that more than 1/4 should have survived. Its possible it was conditions that couldn't be controlled.
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The mortality rate could’ve been significantly lower had Miller swallowed his pride and tried to get help with the diet. Other alternatives also could’ve been hard. I think a much better course of action would have been to establish a legitimate rescue center (perhaps at the University of Lomé, who they work with) rather than just training farmers to take animals. Captive individuals could be sourced and bred from there, and it would be of benefit to the species to have such a program in situ. Instead, he brought them to the states where zoos such as Brookfield bought them from him.
 
jayjds2 said:
The San Diego Zoo kept the same species of pangolin and set the longevity record for it, but instead of approach them for help, Miller tried to do it on his own, and several zoos followed suit.
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Shame on me, I totally forgot about San Diego's pangolin! :oops:
 
So someone changed their vote from Miami to Brookfield at the last minute, giving Brookfield the win, though if we are disqualifying that one vote from the mystery member then they tied. So what happens now? Rematch under a new category?

~Thylo
 
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