ZooChat Cup S2 Match #7: Dallas vs San Diego Zoo Safari Park (6)

Ungulates

  • Dallas

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    19
  • Poll closed .

pachyderm pro

Well-Known Member
5+ year member
Before we begin todays match, I would like to extend my condolences to the Dallas zoo. While it could have put up a fight against a different zoo, this matchup is incredibly unfortunate, ungulates. While the Giants of the Savannah is a superb set of exhibits in its own right, there really is no competing with the incredible African and Asian field exhibits at the Safari Park. Not to mention to excellent exhibits on the walking trails, and you got yourself what could be the best US zoo for ungulates out there. I usually try to stay impartial with these opening posts, but whoever is able to make a half decent argument for why Dallas should win deserves some serious credit. I knew this match would be a landslide win. If it were herps Dallas would have this match easy, but the Safari park got lucky and there really is no beating it with this category at hand.

The concept behind this poll is explained here: ZooChat Cup Season 2

Tomorrow: North Carolina (7) vs Philadelphia
 
I usually try to stay impartial with these opening posts, but whoever is able to make a half decent argument for why Dallas should win deserves some serious credit.

Do you really? :p ;)

I knew this match would be a landslide win. If it were herps Dallas would have this match easy, but the Safari park got lucky and there really is no beating it with this category at hand.

rkgm6.gif
 
You've not once been impartial in your openings for any of these challenges, often subtly (and other times not at all subtly) giving one zoo a better summary than the other.

Several of us have suspected these categories have been rigged for some time now, but this just seals the deal. Your a known fan of Minnesota, so the Bronx v Minnesota challenge happens to get the category that gave Minnesota its best chance at winning when it would have been crushed in every other category. Then there was Fort Worth v Oklahoma City, where your opening praised the later while slamming the former for enclosures/species that aren't even at either zoo anymore. Not to mention it just happened to be in the only category where FWZ seemed the obvious loser at first, following your admitted prior knowledge of the place. Disney v Fresno seems fair, but then we move on to Omaha v Toledo, where the known favorite gets a category where it wins in a landslide. Brookfield v Miami is where I think it became much more suspicious for some of us. You reused a category from a previous challenge when not all of the categories had been used yet (I thought every category had to be used before any could be reused?) and it happened to be the only category in the game where Brookfield, your home zoo, had any chance of winning. Cleveland v Oregon again seems more impartial, but I do find it an interesting note that your opening clearly shows you have solid knowledge of both zoos' primate collections and enclosures, but you then say it's a fair match up when Cleveland clearly trumps Oregon (the zoo you made multiple comments against in your opening, calling it bad when some of its few enclosures are better than anything at Cleveland). And now here we are with the blind favorite San Diego going up against Dallas, and the category is once again a previously used one and is the only category where the safari park dominates every other zoo.

I don't want to throw around wild accusations if they're not true, so maybe all of that is just coincidence, but you know what they say about coincidences. I find it very hard to believe that, by chance, just about every match so far has had a category that plays in favor of the zoo you have a clear bias towards or at the very least are much more familiar with. This started out as a very fun game, one which I've enjoyed much more than I thought I would have. It's sparked some great discussions and taught me more about some zoos I didn't know much about. There's really great potential for a fantastic game here, and it really pisses me off that the management of it has been done in such a way that there even needs to be a discussion on whether or not it's being rigged. It's no fun and definitely not sound if the winner is decided before the games even start. And to make it worse some of the people I've been discussing this with have said they're going to start voting against whatever zoo is clearly being given the unfair advantage, which just ruins the game even more! It's not like this is something we can hold every year, zoos don't change quick enough for that, so it makes me mad to see that this isn't take as serious as it could be and just isn't being done right.

I predicted SDZSP would be given the ungulate category the moment I first realized something might be off, and here we are. I've made several more predictions about the future of this game, I look forward to seeing how correct I was.

~Thylo
 
Dallas keeps 24 species of ungulates, including elephants, all in enclosures ranging from good to excellent. They also keep many endangered and lesser kept species. They just opened a new hippo exhibit which is very good, and obviously they have Giants of the Savanna which is incredibly innovative. I also give them further points for the rescue/import of several wild-born elephants from Swaziland. For me San Diego also loses points for having roughly half of their species off-exhibit, as well as the entire Asian hoofstock section, where the rarest of their species are, not being viewable to the public unless you pay $200 for a private tour.

Still, here San Diego does win for their fantastic collection as well as excellent exhibits, though I do not like their safari ride as much as I think most people do. Their cloning project for Northern White Rhinos is the deal-maker for me.

I hate the way this challenge is being run, and I am convinced beyond much reasonable doubt that it is rigged, but if I'm going to be fair and honest then SDZSP is the obvious winner. I don't think I'm going to vote on this one, though, in protest. I highly doubt my vote will make a difference here anyhow.

~Thylo
 
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While I'd say I'm a little disheartened that such bold accusations are being thrown my way without any evidence, I honestly was some what expecting this to happen. San Diego Zoo Safari Park with Ungulates? Of course they are going to win. So besides Thylo and Dave, this post is for anyone else who believes I am rigging this game.

You've not once been impartial in your openings for any of these challenges, often subtly (and other times not at all subtly) giving one zoo a better summary than the other.
I will completely admit, I am very much guilty of this. However, most of the time its less that I'm in favor of the zoo, more so I don't know as much about it. Take the Brookfield vs Miami match for example. Brookfield is my home zoo, I know a lot about it so I want to give as much information about as possible. If people will like I will stay as impartial as possible from know on in my opening statements, though I will likely make a separate post detailing my subjective thoughts towards the zoos in question.
Several of us have suspected these categories have been rigged for some time now, but this just seals the deal. Your a known fan of Minnesota, so the Bronx v Minnesota challenge happens to get the category that gave Minnesota its best chance at winning when it would have been crushed in every other category. Then there was Fort Worth v Oklahoma City, where your opening praised the later while slamming the former for enclosures/species that aren't even at either zoo anymore. Not to mention it just happened to be in the only category where FWZ seemed the obvious loser at first, following your admitted prior knowledge of the place. Disney v Fresno seems fair, but then we move on to Omaha v Toledo, where the known favorite gets a category where it wins in a landslide. Brookfield v Miami is where I think it became much more suspicious for some of us. You reused a category from a previous challenge when not all of the categories had been used yet (I thought every category had to be used before any could be reused?) and it happened to be the only category in the game where Brookfield, your home zoo, had any chance of winning. Cleveland v Oregon again seems more impartial, but I do find it an interesting note that your opening clearly shows you have solid knowledge of both zoos' primate collections and enclosures, but you then say it's a fair match up when Cleveland clearly trumps Oregon (the zoo you made multiple comments against in your opening, calling it bad when some of its few enclosures are better than anything at Cleveland). And now here we are with the blind favorite San Diego going up against Dallas, and the category is once again a previously used one and is the only category where the safari park dominates every other zoo.
I'm a known fan of Minnesota? Mind explaining where you got that information from considering I have never been or have any intentions any time soon of going to Minnesota? I can say it as much as I want and you still have every right not to believe me, but I promise you that none of the matches were rigged in the slightest. Oklahoma City vs Fort Worth, I don't exactly see how there was any bias here as far as choosing the category goes. I have never been to either of these places and my opening post that thread, which was certainly made to look bias look present against Fort Worth, was unwise of me but as you can see I switched my vote and Fort Worth won the category. Omaha vs Toledo, just because a category gets drawn for a zoo that is superior in one over the other my a steady margin doesn't mean its rigged. Omaha is just a great zoo, and is well represented in diverse amounts of species. In fact, I really cant see a category Toledo could have beaten it in honestly. Now Brookfield vs Miami I knew I would likely get some heat over. Miami would likely have crushed Brookfield if the category was ungulates, birds, herps and possibly primates or large carnivores. However, Brookfield happens to be strong when it comes to small mammals and fish/inverts, and one of those categories were drawn, and now as of about an hour or so ago that match is tied and is anyone's game.

I never stated that all 7 categories had to be used right off the bat, in fact I think in my opinion that would take away some of the randomization elements in the beginning the game. Buts that's just my thought on the matter, if @CGSwans did it differently then I must have missed that. Which also makes me wonder, I find it strange that if he drew a category that one zoo is known for being better in, he didn't get any blow back over it. He didn't deserve any blow back over it anyways, but it still is interesting that I'm being treated like a liar while ever is just taking his word as the way it is. Hm.
I don't want to throw around wild accusations if they're not true, so maybe all of that is just coincidence, but you know what they say about coincidences. I find it very hard to believe that, by chance, just about every match so far has had a category that plays in favor of the zoo you have a clear bias towards or at the very least are much more familiar with. This started out as a very fun game, one which I've enjoyed much more than I thought I would have. It's sparked some great discussions and taught me more about some zoos I didn't know much about. There's really great potential for a fantastic game here, and it really pisses me off that the management of it has been done in such a way that there even needs to be a discussion on whether or not it's being rigged. It's no fun and definitely not sound if the winner is decided before the games even start. And to make it worse some of the people I've been discussing this with have said they're going to start voting against whatever zoo is clearly being given the unfair advantage, which just ruins the game even more! It's not like this is something we can hold every year, zoos don't change quick enough for that, so it makes me mad to see that this isn't take as serious as it could be and just isn't being done right.

I predicted SDZSP would be given the ungulate category the moment I first realized something might be off, and here we are. I've made several more predictions about the future of this game, I look forward to seeing how correct I was.

~Thylo

Listen, if you think that I've been rigging this game, then so be it. While it may mean nothing, I will say it one last time. None of the matches have been rigged and none of them will be rigged. Again, you can believe whatever you want, same goes to whoever else you discussed this with. These accusations are really bugging me, and if you would like I would happily share the tool I use to randomize these matches. Now if anyone still has accusations of me rigging the matches, feel free to take it up with me personally. And I also completely agree with Thylo on one point, its a shame that this discussion even needs to be had, but in some ways I understand where suspicion could be coming from. Anyways, I'm going to continue on with the competition, and if you feel that I'm in anyways rigging or tampering with the game, tell me why you think so and I will give you a response.
 
Your a known fan of Minnesota, so the Bronx v Minnesota challenge happens to get the category that gave Minnesota its best chance at winning when it would have been crushed in every other category.
Not true. Minnesota could have won fish and inverts.
 
This is like comparing a Lamborghini to a normal family van, both work well but one has better quality. Ungulates at SDZSP are treated almost better than the people who go into the facility. They have the large and gorgeous savannah with an amazing collection. If I was thrown in the middle of that exhibit and had no idea where I was, I would think I was in Africa. Dallas is okay but I think comparing the two places is pointless. My vote is to SDZSP.
 
This is like comparing a Lamborghini to a normal family van, both work well but one has better quality. Ungulates at SDZSP are treated almost better than the people who go into the facility. They have the large and gorgeous savannah with an amazing collection. If I was thrown in the middle of that exhibit and had no idea where I was, I would think I was in Africa. Dallas is okay but I think comparing the two places is pointless. My vote is to SDZSP.
Dallas is far more then just ok. The exhibit yards there are still excellent. Its just the matter of comparing the two, and that no other zoo can really stack up against the safari park when it comes to this category.
 
I was going to provide a long post on the Safari Parks ungulate enclosures, but it's pointless, everyone has already acknowledged that SDZSP is superior to Dallas and just about every other zoo in North America. Dallas looks like it has some nice enclosures, but the safari park is undoubtedly better. No contest.
 
This is like comparing a Lamborghini to a normal family van, both work well but one has better quality. Ungulates at SDZSP are treated almost better than the people who go into the facility. They have the large and gorgeous savannah with an amazing collection. If I was thrown in the middle of that exhibit and had no idea where I was, I would think I was in Africa. Dallas is okay but I think comparing the two places is pointless. My vote is to SDZSP.
Surely the all around concrete barriers, “safari” trams of tourists, and mesh barriers around trees would provide some clue? Not to mention the large herd of hybrid giraffes (a waste of space considering pure giraffes are in need of conservation attention) and tire tracks run rampant through each field. Honestly, they’re not that impressive.

Dallas is far better than ok: they are a pioneer of innovative husbandry involving mixing elephants with other species as well as red river hogs with hippos. Furthermore they have perhaps the best elephant barn in the country and can boast a multigenerational herd, which few can do. There are few, if any better elephant programs in the country.
 
Dallas is far better than ok: they are a pioneer of innovative husbandry involving mixing elephants with other species as well as red river hogs with hippos. Furthermore they have perhaps the best elephant barn in the country and can boast a multigenerational herd, which few can do. There are few, if any better elephant programs in the country.

Out of curiosity, which animals do they mix with Elephants? Red River Hogs with Hippos is a cool idea, but mixing the Hogs with Okapis (which is the case at the SDZSP) is IMO even cooler.
 
While I'd say I'm a little disheartened that such bold accusations are being thrown my way without any evidence, I honestly was some what expecting this to happen. San Diego Zoo Safari Park with Ungulates? Of course they are going to win. So besides Thylo and Dave, this post is for anyone else who believes I am rigging this game.

It's not just this round, though. There's an observable pattern found throughout most of this game.

I will completely admit, I am very much guilty of this. However, most of the time its less that I'm in favor of the zoo, more so I don't know as much about it. Take the Brookfield vs Miami match for example. Brookfield is my home zoo, I know a lot about it so I want to give as much information about as possible. If people will like I will stay as impartial as possible from know on in my opening statements, though I will likely make a separate post detailing my subjective thoughts towards the zoos in question.

Yes I would highly suggest keeping things impartial in your openings (what you say in your personal post is up to you) and if you don't know much about one zoo, don't leave it out while provided tons of info. for the other. As a participant of this game you should be researching both zoos in order to make a fair vote anyway...

I'm a known fan of Minnesota? Mind explaining where you got that information from considering I have never been or have any intentions any time soon of going to Minnesota? I can say it as much as I want and you still have every right not to believe me, but I promise you that none of the matches were rigged in the slightest. Oklahoma City vs Fort Worth, I don't exactly see how there was any bias here as far as choosing the category goes. I have never been to either of these places and my opening post that thread, which was certainly made to look bias look present against Fort Worth, was unwise of me but as you can see I switched my vote and Fort Worth won the category. Omaha vs Toledo, just because a category gets drawn for a zoo that is superior in one over the other my a steady margin doesn't mean its rigged. Omaha is just a great zoo, and is well represented in diverse amounts of species. In fact, I really cant see a category Toledo could have beaten it in honestly. Now Brookfield vs Miami I knew I would likely get some heat over. Miami would likely have crushed Brookfield if the category was ungulates, birds, herps and possibly primates or large carnivores. However, Brookfield happens to be strong when it comes to small mammals and fish/inverts, and one of those categories were drawn, and now as of about an hour or so ago that match is tied and is anyone's game.

I was told that you were a fan of Minnesota, if you're not then you can discount that point. Of course one zoo getting a category that gives it a sweeping victory does not mean the game is rigged, my points were to be taken as a whole, not individually. Maybe I'm wrong and you're not fixing the match categories. If that's the case then I genuinely feel bad and sincerely apologize, but all I'm saying is I've noticed a pattern here, and others have, too. And we've not come to this conclusion together, we all did individually. I had no ideas anyone else other than myself and one other member had these suspicions until yesterday. Several people have now individually noticed the same pattern and come up with more or less the same suspicions about the honesty of this game, one must admit that does account for something. I mean, I wasn't even the only one predicting certain match-ups would turn out the way they have. The odds of a single category repeating before all the others go once is not impossibly small, but it's not large either. But now it's happened twice, once with your home zoo in the category it had the best chance with and once with a well-known favorite that would've almost undoubtedly lost to Dallas in any other category. Again, maybe I'm wrong, but the game thus far does seem very fishy to me and various others. Either way, if this game is genuine (and I very much hope it is) then your openings are probably the biggest problem after the insane coincidences. They 100% lead people's votes in one direction or the other, and perhaps this is what gives a larger impression of rigging. Every match thus far has started with the zoo you introduced better winning, it was only after a very large amount of arguing and persuading by myself and @jayjds2 that things turned around for zoos like Fort Worth and Miami.

I never stated that all 7 categories had to be used right off the bat, in fact I think in my opinion that would take away some of the randomization elements in the beginning the game. Buts that's just my thought on the matter, if @CGSwans did it differently then I must have missed that. Which also makes me wonder, I find it strange that if he drew a category that one zoo is known for being better in, he didn't get any blow back over it. He didn't deserve any blow back over it anyways, but it still is interesting that I'm being treated like a liar while ever is just taking his word as the way it is. Hm.

If that's the case then I was mistaken. I do, too, agree it's better to let all categories be active at once. I did not participate in the European cup so I do not know how things occurred there, however I still think you're missing my point. A zoo CGSwans might be likely to support over another getting a category which caters to its greatest strengths happening here and there would not be cause of alarm. If it had happened time and time again in a short timespan, then there would be an issue. From the European members I've talked to, this never really occurred meanwhile it's happened the majority of the time within the first handful of matches within the very first round of the game. That is why I felt strongly enough to state it publicly, and assumedly why others felt strongly enough to support me.

Again, if I'm wrong I'll admit I'm wrong, and I'll openly apologize to anyone who I offended. I just noticed something, found out others I trust noticed the same thing, and felt strongly enough to bring it to light. I hope everyone can understand that.

~Thylo
 
Out of curiosity, which animals do they mix with Elephants? Red River Hogs with Hippos is a cool idea, but mixing the Hogs with Okapis (which is the case at the SDZSP) is IMO even cooler.

Giraffes, zebras, kudu, and I think one other. Ostrich and guineafowl are also present if you're curious about the exhibit as a whole.

One correction from my post earlier: Dallas keeps 25 ungulates.

~Thylo
 
Giraffes, zebras, kudu, and I think one other. Ostrich and guineafowl are also present if you're curious about the exhibit as a whole.
In the past, they have also successfully been mixed with impala and Nile lechwe.

Out of curiosity, which animals do they mix with Elephants? Red River Hogs with Hippos is a cool idea, but mixing the Hogs with Okapis (which is the case at the SDZSP) is IMO even cooler.
Dallas also mixes the species with a bachelor herd of nyala in a beautiful forested exhibit. Hippo have a history of being particularly rough in mixed exhibits, while okapi are commonly mixed with smaller ungulates, so this is more impressive.
 
This is like comparing a Lamborghini to a normal family van, both work well but one has better quality. Ungulates at SDZSP are treated almost better than the people who go into the facility. They have the large and gorgeous savannah with an amazing collection. If I was thrown in the middle of that exhibit and had no idea where I was, I would think I was in Africa. Dallas is okay but I think comparing the two places is pointless. My vote is to SDZSP.

While I agree that SDZSP has some very nice fields, I agree with Jay that they are not that nice. Unless you stood between two small hills, there's no point in any of the fields that you could not easily see every barrier in every direction. The main field is long but not that wide in a lot of parts. Tbh I was surprised that they weren't s large as this site makes them out to be. There's also a lot of unsightly concrete, mock rock, fencing, obvious feeders, barren patches, and tire tracks. All that said, they're still fantastic enclosures that would give just about any zoo other than Disney a run for its money.

~Thylo
 
Surely the all around concrete barriers, “safari” trams of tourists, and mesh barriers around trees would provide some clue? Not to mention the large herd of hybrid giraffes (a waste of space considering pure giraffes are in need of conservation attention) and tire tracks run rampant through each field. Honestly, they’re not that impressive.

Dallas is far better than ok: they are a pioneer of innovative husbandry involving mixing elephants with other species as well as red river hogs with hippos. Furthermore they have perhaps the best elephant barn in the country and can boast a multigenerational herd, which few can do. There are few, if any better elephant programs in the country.


Of course I’m hyperbolizing, I’m just stating the natural feel the exhibit is better than Dallas’ exhibit. I’ve been to SDZSP multiple times but most of those times was when I was a kid. The image of the large expanses of grass and animals makes you feel that way when your a child. Now I look back at my old pictures of the place and I agree that I may have made SDZSP giant savannah exhibit sound more fantastical that it really is.

I looked at a few pictures of Dallas and I do admit that there exhibits are very good. I never knew you could mix elephants with any other animal. I thought they’re just too aggressive. I agree that giants of the savannah is a top notch exhibit but my vote still stands with SDZSP.
 
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