ZooChat Cup Semi-final #2: Berlin (2) vs Burgers (6)

[CGSwans]

This match pitches arguably the best exemplars, respectively, of two competing concepts of what a zoo 'should' be. The progressive Burgers knocked off Dutch rival Rotterdam 22-11, while the traditionalist Berlin comfortably won what I personally felt was an anti-climactic quarter-final over Plzen, 18-5.

Now, for a spot in the final, they're going to go into battle over ungulates and ectotherms. Remember that manatees and elephants count for this category.

 

[TZDugong]

Burgers merits on Ecotherms have been debated on another thread (ZooChat Cup Match #25: Burgers (6) vs Wroclaw), but I feel as if Berlin’s Aquarium beets it on size and scope alone.

Ungulates are trickier, but isn’t this one of Berlins specialties? I do know that Burgers has a great Manatee pool, and that’s a big factor for me.

So, at the moment I’m placing my vote for Berlin, but I’m open to changing it if an arguments good enough for Burgers.

 

[lintworm]

Purely based on species richness and diversity Berlin wins this easily. Purely based on innovation and enclosures Burgers' wins this easily, though the nice historic buildings of Berlin certainly deserve a mention, as some are really unique.

Burgers' Ocean and Mangrove buildings are just as different as it gets compared to the massive Aquarium building of Berlin. And where Berlin isn't too novel with mixing multiple species, Burgers' arguably has two of the best mixed hoofstock enclosures in Europe, but not the post stamp collection in basically any Ungulate group.

Burgers' Zoo wins however clearly when it comes to both Elephants and Manatees.

 

[sooty mangabey]

Burgers' Zoo wins however clearly when it comes to both Elephants and Manatees.

Is this so with elephants? Berlin’s house is rather dated and the paddock somewhat small but it does at least have a decent number of animals held together. The last time I paid attention to the elephants at Arnhem, the enclosure was small and unattractive, and there were just a pair of animals on show. It seemed to be the weakest part of this otherwise outstanding zoo.

 

[lintworm]

Is this so with elephants? Berlin’s house is rather dated and the paddock somewhat small but it does at least have a decent number of animals held together. The last time I paid attention to the elephants at Arnhem, the enclosure was small and unattractive, and there were just a pair of animals on show. It seemed to be the weakest part of this otherwise outstanding zoo.

The Elephant paddock in Burgers' is one of the very few in Europe that actually has trees and is not a big sandpit, always a plus for forest animals. though not very big, it is nicely structured with height differences and some rocks. Berlin's enclosure is quite a big bigger, but misses any structure and looks more like a Desert...

The main point why I prefer Burgers' here is that they take in elderly elephants nobody wants. So currently there are only 2 females of over 50 years old. This does not make for the liveliest display, but Burgers' is the perfect elderly home for these animals.

 

[Vision]

I think forming an opinion on Burgers' elephant enclosure really depends on which side you've seen of it. On my first three visits to Burgers' I only ever passed the view from the top of the enclosure (on the way to the meerkat and former hippo/tapir enclosures), and from that viewing point it does seem quite small and unimaginative indeed. However, when you look at the enclosure from the other side (which I didn't know was possible and thus had never seen until my 4th visit), between the enclosure itself and the Burgers' bush, you do get a better view of the size, which is definitely quite impressive.

I'm really not sure what I'm going to vote for yet... The aquarium in Berlin is one of my favorite zoo buildings, but so are Burgers' mangrove and ocean. The hippo house in Berlin is one of my favorite exhibits, but so is the Rimba mixed enclosure. The giraffe house at Berlin is architecturally and historically fantastic, but Burgers' giraffe savanna is so well done too... I think I'll vote for Burgers for now, but perhaps I might change my mind in a few hours.

 

[Mr. Zootycoon]

A really tough one, probably the most difficult one for me. Berlin is, despite its shortcomings, the best version of the classical zoo I know. The historic ungulate houses are just breathtaking, and the ibex mountain is truly impressive. The collection is simply wonderful, with several often somewhat negnected taxa are represented by multiple species. Gaur, babirusa, visayan warty pig, baird's tapir to name but a few, were highlights for me.

The Aquarium is probably one of the best classical "ecotherm houses" in Europe. The aquarium part is nice, and has several species of endangered small fish, several jellyfish, lungfish and of course the huge arapaimas as particular highlights for me. The reptile floor has, besides the crocodile hall with gharials, a huge range of vivariums and all of them are well decorated and generally spacious (although there are exceptions). The amphibian part is unlike any amphibian collection I've ever seen (even the larger ones tend to focus heavily on dendrobats). And then there's the invertebrate part with an interesting display of species in fine exhibits (which is very rare when it comes to inverts).

But Burgers' is very hard to compare to this, it does things differenty. The Safari doesn't show as many African ungulates as Berlin's separate paddocks do, but it does display them in context, together. The same happens in the Rimba, but with primates in the mix. Even the ones in the Desert are clearly part of a larger picture. The manaties, swimming in a huge tank surroundend by fish and turtles with butterflies fluttering above them, is another great example of this.

Same for ectotherms. Burgers' collection is all about context. Berlin has a great invertebrate collection, but it is in no way as innovative as Burgers' Mangrove or even Ocean. The mudflat for crabs is one-of-a-kind, something no other zoo tried before. Burgers' work with corals is impressive, and many fish reproduce succesfully in the Ocean. And I can't think of any fish exhibit in Berlin that matches Burgers' shark tank.

 

[ShonenJake13]

A truly difficult choice. I’ve voted Burgers’ in every one of its matches up until now, but this may be the one where I get swayed. Voted Burgers’ to kick things off, will wait and hear what is said about Berlin.

 

[Ursus]

Burgers wins this as I simply neglect the quantity and go for the quality here, Burger's has one of the largest coral reefs in captivity, this is a truly impressive achievement and that weighs more than having more species in both categories to me. Besides that, Burger's has a really good success rate with rhinoceros breeding, which are by far my favourite animals on earth. However that's also something very minor to my vote. For me the designs of the ungulate exhibits are what makes me vote, and even though Berlin has a lot of good looking ones as well, I still think burgers wins this. Now, for ectotherms, the ''new'' Mangrove, Bush and Ocean section are all massive and very impressive. They have several species of ectotherms roam in the Bush and Mangrove, which makes it even more exciting if you spot one!

 

[lintworm]

If only the category would have been primates or carnivores instead of Hoofed mammals, it would be a slightly easier choice. But these pairings play at the strengths of both zoos and I can't get myself to vote against either of them....

 

[PicanBird]

In my opinion Burgers should get this vote based on their amazing success in the Ocean, a massive living coral reef in an aquarium is something that must be rewarded in my opinion.
The bush and new mangrove also holds amazing ecoterms.

Berlin has a nice aquarium but feels more like a display of fishtanks rather than the experience Burgers is offering with their ecotherms (Mostly fish and corals in this case)

Ungulates is a tough match, as Berlin has both hippo and pygmys and black rhino. Burgers does have a nice amount of species aswell such as the white rhino and beisa oryx. However in different species of ungulates Berlin would win.
Looking at enclosures for these animals Burgers' takes the win. And enclosures are important aswell. Visitors and zoo-lovers don't like to see an elephant in a small concrete box.

Elephants in Burgers have an awesome enclosure with different elevations and actual trees in them. Something I have not seen in other zoos!

My vote here is going to Burgers but barely!

 

[Dassie rat]

Ungulates

Both: South-East Asian elephant; Grant`s zebra; northern warthog; Reeves' muntjac; Eurasian forest reindeer; Javan banteng

Arnhem
Asian elephant
West Indian manatee
Southern white rhinoceros
Collared peccary
Rothschild's giraffe
Common hog deer; Myanmar thamin
California bighorn; eastern bongo; common waterbuck; roan antelope; beisa oryx; eastern white-bearded wildebeest; western blue duiker

Berlin
Przewalski's horse; Grevy's zebra
Baird's and Brazilian tapirs
Greater one-horned and eastern black rhinoceroses
Red river hog; Bornean bearded and Negros warty pigs; Sulawesi babirusa
Southern white-lipped peccary
Guanaco; Vicuna
Java mouse deer
Giraffe; okapi
Chinese water deer; Persian fallow deer; Visayan spotted and Indian swamp deer; Japanese sika; white-tailed deer; southern pudu
Blackbuck; springbok; southern gerenuk; Kirk's dik-dik; Sichuan takin; Himalayan tahr; Siberian ibex; lowland anoa; Indian gaur; European and plains bison; red buffalo; nyala; western sitatunga; greater kudu; common eland; eastern bongo; defassa waterbuck; Kafue lechwe; black sable antelope; gemsbok; scimitar-horned oryx; blesbok; red duiker
Western pygmy and common hippopotami

Arnhem has a manatee; Berlin has camelids, a chevotrain and hippopotami, so wins on family diversity.

Reptiles

Both: Malaysian giant pond and yellow-spotted Amazon river turtles; red-footed tortoise; common green iguana; Cuban brown anole; green basilisk; central bearded dragon; mourning gecko; common blue-tongued skink; Gila monster; green tree python

Arnhem
Asian leaf turtle; red-eared slider
Guadeloupe anole; common chuckwalla; Tokay gecko; desert spiny and collared lizards; Asian water monitor
Reticulated python; California king and Sinaloan milk snakes; red diamond rattlesnake
Broad-snouted caiman

Berlin
Central American wood, red-cheeked and scorpion mud, Siebenrock's and South American snake-necked, Hilaire's side-necked, pig-nosed, Mississippi map, red-bellied short-necked and common musk turtles; mata-mata; Malagasy spider, radiated, yellow-footed and leopard tortoises; yellow-bellied slider
Tuatara
Common spiny-tailed, Guatemalan spiny-tailed, Hispaniolan rhinoceros, Oaxacan spiny-tailed and Fiji short-crested iguanas; Knight anole; brown basilisk; Cuvier's Madagascar swift; Savigny's agama; black hardun; Baja California rock, blue spiny, Bosk's fringe-toed, four-lined girdled, caiman, frill-necked, giant plated, tropical girdled, green keel-bellied, Oman spiny-tailed, Philippine sailfin, red-sided curly-tailed and blue rainbow lizards; Common leopard and Bibron's thick-toed geckos; Cunningham's and prehensile-tailed skinks; ornate mastigure; panther and veiled chameleons; Chinese and Australian water dragons; Mexican beaded lizard; blue-spotted tree, Mertens' water, northern Pilbara rock, spiny-tailed and freckled monitors
Boa constrictor; Brazilian rainbow, Cuban tree, Puerto Rican and Jamaican boas; yellow anaconda; Burmese rock, spotted, woma and Savu pythons; cave beauty, Honduran milk, red-tailed rat, beauty and corn snakes; common and yellow-lipped sea kraits; Trans-Pecos copperhead; western diamondback rattlesnake
Smooth-fronted and spectacled caimans; gharial

Berlin has a tuatara and wins on order diversity.

Amphibians

Both: Mission golden-eyed tree frog

Arnhem
Montserrat whistling frog; Colorado River toad

Berlin
Cayenne and Rio Cauca caecilians
Algerian ribbed, Okinawa sword-tail, emperor, Chinese warty, Italian alpine, Kaiser's spotted and Himalayan newts; axolotl; banded fire and barred and eastern tiger salamanders; lesser siren
African bullfrog; common reed, greenhouse, Sambava tomato, painted-belly and tiger-striped leaf, Riobamba marsupial, orange-legged monkey, yellow stream, long-nosed horned and Budgett’s frogs; Congo dwarf and African clawed frog; American and Australian green, Chinese gliding, spot-legged, clown, Cuban, file-eared, European, Mediterranean, Spurrell's, Morelet’s and barking tree frogs; Amazonian, splashback, strawberry, spotte and golden poison frogs; Blue, green and black, yellow-banded and Golfodulcean poison and dyeing dart frogs; Anthony’s poison-arrow frog; African, bumble bee, Common Indian, green, European green, Sabana Surinam, Perak horned, yellow-bellied, Surinam, Klappenbach’s red-belly, marine, oriental fire-bellied, spotted and Brongersma's toads;

Berlin has caecilians and salamanders and wins on order diversity

I started trying to compare the fish of Arnhem and Berlin, but Berlin's collection seems to have changed since yesterday. Suffice it to say, Berlin has a much larger and more varied collection and wins on diversity.

Berlin wins in all categories.

 

[Mr. Zootycoon]

Berlin has a nice aquarium but feels more like a display of fishtanks rather than the experience Burgers is offering with their ecotherms (Mostly fish and corals in this case)

While I share your opinion that the Ocean is a totally different experience than the Berlin Aquarium, the latter is much, much more than just "a diplay of fish tanks." Burgers' is in no way a match against this building when it comes to reptiles or amphibians. Only because of the sheer quality of Burgers' Ocean and Mangrove and the impressive work with corals behind the scenes does Arnhem stand a chance.

It is still quite close, I would almost hope for a tie just to see how these two zoos compare in different categories!

 

[pipaluk]

Here we go again!! Burgers has 3 votes from 'members ' with 1 post between them!!!

This should be a comfortable win for Berlin IMHO! But it won't be clearly!

 

[Vision]

Here we go again!! Burgers has 3 votes from 'members ' with 1 vote between them!!!

This should be a comfortable win for Berlin IMHO! But it won't be clearly!

Your opinion isn't the only opinion. The polls are public and for every member to vote on... Why shouldn't new members be able to have an opinion?

 

[pipaluk]

Your opinion isn't the only opinion. The polls are public and for every member to vote on... Why shouldn't new members be able to have an opinion?

Because they're only joining to vote for Burgers apparently, just as happened in the controversial 1St round vote v Wroclaw, 3 new members joined that week and posted nothing before voting for Burgers then! it's becoming a farce!!

 

[ShonenJake13]

Here we go again!! Burgers has 3 votes from 'members ' with 1 post between them!!!

This should be a comfortable win for Berlin IMHO! But it won't be clearly!

Throughout this competition you have been very anti-Burgers’, having voted against it every time, even in situations where Burgers’ was quite clearly the superior (eg against Pairi Daiza) or in situations where no new individuals were joining to allegedly vote. I respectfully suggest that you allow the semi final to run its course regardless of who is voting, lest we have another Seborgagate, and watch as Burgers’ either loses to Berlin, or to Prague, both of which could quite comfortably defeat it in certain categories.

 

[pipaluk]

Throughout this competition you have been very anti-Burgers’, having voted against it every time, even in situations where Burgers’ was quite clearly the superior (eg against Pairi Daiza). I respectfully suggest that you allow the semi final to run its course regardless of who is voting, lest we have another Seborgagate, and watch as Burgers’ either loses to Berlin, or to Prague, both of which could quite comfortably defeat it in certain categories.

I have voted against Burgers simply because of the way it got through the first round ! I would have voted Berlin in this round regardless of the first round fix though! This is the 3Rd Seborgagate of the competition & both times Burgers has been in trouble it has suddenly got votes from new members! It's pointless carrying on really

 

[ShonenJake13]

I have voted against Burgers simply because of the way it got through the first round ! I would have voted Berlin in this round regardless of the first round fix though! This is the 3Rd Seborgagate of the competition & both times Burgers has been in trouble it has suddenly got votes from new members! It's pointless carrying on really

Don’t you think that in itself is biased? Those who joined to vote for Burgers’ aren’t trying to get an awful zoo through, they're rallying to vote for a zoo they think is good enough. Only one person for this round that has voted for Burgers’ is massively new, the others have been members since March or before this round. Berlin is still winning regardless, so let’s not jump the gun and say “it’s a 3rd Seborgagate”.

 

[pipaluk]

Don’t you think that in itself is biased? Those who joined to vote for Burgers’ aren’t trying to get an awful zoo through, they're rallying to vote for a zoo they think is good enough. Only one person for this round that has voted for Burgers’ is massively new, the others have been members since March or before this round. Berlin is still winning regardless, so let’s not jump the gun and say “it’s a 3rd Seborgagate”.

We'll wait and see then..
I reserve my right to vote against any zoo that I consider to be gaining an unfair advantage though just as Shorts did in the Seborgagate match!