Zoochat (Tea)Cup 2025

[TeaLovingDave]

As noted above, had progression been determined by overall match score rather than win count, the final result would have been rather different - and one result in particular very much demonstrates the truth in my repeated assertion that every single vote can and *does* make a difference, and moreover provides a very good early contender for both the "unluckiest competitor" and "luckiest competitor" titles.

Again, those collections which have progressed to the next round are marked in bold:

1. Prague 72.2370%
2. Tierpark Berlin 69.4470%
3. Wroclaw 59.6364%
4. Zoo Berlin 58.7704%
5. Burgers 57.1860%
6. Chester 56.6328%
7. Antwerp 56.5696%
8. Vienna 55.9326%
9. Cologne 53.7420%
10. Stuttgart 53.7330%
11. Leipzig 53.2482%
12. Paris 52.2426%
13. ZSL 51.5042%
14. Beauval 51.2218%
15. Zurich 50.9392%
16. Basel 44.8452%
17. Plzen 43.8750%
18. Nuremberg 40.3564%
19. Budapest 39.6180%
20. Pairi Daiza 39.3404%
21. Artis 39.2866%
22. Zagreb 38.1556%
23. Copenhagen 33.9501%
24. Frankfurt 27.7754%

Put quite simply, Cologne drops out despite having fared better than four collections which progress, whilst Beauval (which competed in the same league to boot) progresses despite having fared worse than two collections which did not a result which can be laid solely on the fact that during the Cologne vs Burgers match, @Kalaw voted 4:1 in favour of the latter collection and @EliasNys switched from a 3:2 Cologne vote to a 3:2 Burgers vote during the final hours of the match. If *either* of these had not occurred, or had been reverted before the end of the match, Cologne would have progressed and Beauval would have dropped out.

More thoughts (and bonus matches whilst I travel) to follow, but in the meantime here is a rather interesting photograph I took last night whilst looking for wild eagle owls in a cemetery north of Hamburg, with significant relevance to a collection I'm increasingly thinking should have been included in the initial bracket rather than Budapest or Copenhagen!

 

[snowleopard]

Even with its enormous popularity in terms of annual attendance, I'm not surprised to see Pairi Daiza bounced early as it's a bit of a divisive zoo on this site. The general public adores it and zoo nerds are more discerning with their taste. And another divisive zoo with a number of outdated exhibits (Stuttgart) progressed and so the luck of the draw certainly plays its part.

Zurich and Cologne not being in the dozen zoos that are left in the competition is a shock, as not many would have predicted that beforehand. Zurich's current construction phase cost it a slot in the next round, while Cologne went out by the absolute slimmest of margins and it literally came down to a single vote against the German zoo. I would have predicted both those to be locks to advance and it's a bit unfortunate to see them out as they were dark horse contenders to win the whole thing!

Of the zoos that are left, 9 are consistently rated as amidst the best on the continent. Beauval, Berlin Tierpark, Berlin Zoo, Burgers, Chester, Leipzig, Prague, Vienna and Wroclaw. Somehow Stuttgart squeezed through. The two outliers, in my opinion, are Paris and Antwerp but that's because each of them was counted as TWO zoos in this competition. The double-shot zoological connection in Paris and the Antwerp/Planckendael combo in Belgium is the reason why they progressed as there is no way they would still be alive otherwise.

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

First things first - these are the final rankings at the end of the first round; all progression was determined by win count, and no "percentage score" tiebreaks ended up required. The collections progressing to the next round are marked in bold:

1. Prague 5/5
2. Tierpark Berlin 5/5
3. Wroclaw 4/5
4. Zoo Berlin 4/5
5. Burgers 4/5
6. Chester 4/5
7. Vienna 4/5
8. Stuttgart 4/5
9. Antwerp 3/5
10. Leipzig 3/5
11. Paris 3/5
12. Beauval 3/5

Incidentally, each won the following rounds...

1. Prague - Hoofstock, Carnivores, Primates, Latin America & Caribbean, Islands & Australia
2. Tierpark Berlin - Primates, Ectotherms, Asia, Temperate Forest, Mountains & Poles
   
3. Wroclaw - Misc. Mammals, Africa, Temperate Forest, Water
4. Zoo Berlin - Carnivores, Birds, Ectotherms, Africa
5. Burgers - Misc. Mammals, Latin America & Caribbean, Islands & Australia, Tropical Forest
6. Chester - Misc. Mammals, Ectotherms, Latin America & Caribbean, Tropical Forest
7. Vienna - Carnivores, Africa, Grasslands & Deserts, Mountains & Poles
8. Stuttgart - Birds, Misc. Mammals, Islands & Australia, Water
9. Antwerp - Birds, Tropical Forest, Grasslands & Deserts
10. Leipzig - Latin America & Caribbean, Africa, Tropical Forest
11. Paris - Hoofstock, Birds, Primates
12. Beauval - Hoofstock, Primates, Mountains & Poles

What I notice out of all this is two things in particular.

First, Paris was the only qualifier where all of its victories could be condensed into just one category - in this case, they were all family based, with no location or habitat based wins.

Second, "Asia" was the round with the highest number of casualties, with only one of its four winners (Tierpark Berlin) making it through.

 

[Kalaw]

As noted above, had progression been determined by overall match score rather than win count, the final result would have been rather different - and one result in particular very much demonstrates the truth in my repeated assertion that every single vote can and *does* make a difference, and moreover provides a very good early contender for both the "unluckiest competitor" and "luckiest competitor" titles.

Again, those collections which have progressed to the next round are marked in bold:

1. Prague 72.2370%
2. Tierpark Berlin 69.4470%
3. Wroclaw 59.6364%
4. Zoo Berlin 58.7704%
5. Burgers 57.1860%
6. Chester 56.6328%
7. Antwerp 56.5696%
8. Vienna 55.9326%
9. Cologne 53.7420%
10. Stuttgart 53.7330%
11. Leipzig 53.2482%
12. Paris 52.2426%
13. ZSL 51.5042%
14. Beauval 51.2218%
15. Zurich 50.9392%
16. Basel 44.8452%
17. Plzen 43.8750%
18. Nuremberg 40.3564%
19. Budapest 39.6180%
20. Pairi Daiza 39.3404%
21. Artis 39.2866%
22. Zagreb 38.1556%
23. Copenhagen 33.9501%
24. Frankfurt 27.7754%

Put quite simply, Cologne drops out despite having fared better than four collections which progress, whilst Beauval (which competed in the same league to boot) progresses despite having fared worse than two collections which did not a result which can be laid solely on the fact that during the Cologne vs Burgers match, @Kalaw voted 4:1 in favour of the latter collection and @EliasNys switched from a 3:2 Cologne vote to a 3:2 Burgers vote during the final hours of the match. If *either* of these had not occurred, or had been reverted before the end of the match, Cologne would have progressed and Beauval would have dropped out.

More thoughts (and bonus matches whilst I travel) to follow, but in the meantime here is a rather interesting photograph I took last night whilst looking for wild eagle owls in a cemetery north of Hamburg, with significant relevance to a collection I'm increasingly thinking should have been included in the initial bracket rather than Budapest or Copenhagen!

View attachment 782843

Zürich and Basel grouped by Paris. Plzen and Pairi Daiza grouped by Stuttgart. Pairi Daiza going five defeats for five. Beauval advancing with Köln and ZSL eliminated due to a pair of matches with single vote margins. The group stage has only just finished and it has already provided plenty of upsets and thrillers. Can't wait to see where things go from here.

I am quite pleased to see that I have actually been to half of the final twelve, so should be able to speak from experience a fair amount in what is to come. Can't wait.

 

[Penshet]

Even with its enormous popularity in terms of annual attendance, I'm not surprised to see Pairi Daiza bounced early as it's a bit of a divisive zoo on this site. The general public adores it and zoo nerds are more discerning with their taste. And another divisive zoo with a number of outdated exhibits (Stuttgart) progressed and so the luck of the draw certainly plays its part.

Zurich and Cologne not being in the dozen zoos that are left in the competition is a shock, as not many would have predicted that beforehand. Zurich's current construction phase cost it a slot in the next round, while Cologne went out by the absolute slimmest of margins and it literally came down to a single vote against the German zoo. I would have predicted both those to be locks to advance and it's a bit unfortunate to see them out as they were dark horse contenders to win the whole thing!

Of the zoos that are left, 9 are consistently rated as amidst the best on the continent. Beauval, Berlin Tierpark, Berlin Zoo, Burgers, Chester, Leipzig, Prague, Vienna and Wroclaw. Somehow Stuttgart squeezed through. The two outliers, in my opinion, are Paris and Antwerp but that's because each of them was counted as TWO zoos in this competition. The double-shot zoological connection in Paris and the Antwerp/Planckendael combo in Belgium is the reason why they progressed as there is no way they would still be alive otherwise.

Anyone familiar with Stuttgart would not be surprised that it survived the group stage. This is certainly one of Europe's best zoos, and in Germany I would only rank both Berlins higher. Leipzig might beat it for some, but to me it's hardly a match for the Wilhelma.

Antwerp and Planckendael have no doubt greatly benefited from being combined, as these two complement eachother very well.

Among the Parisian zoos it's quite clear that Vincennes is a small, modern gem, while the Menagerie is a historic artefact. Both with their pros and cons and it's hardly a surprise either they've made it this far.

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

BTW, sorry if this has been answered already, but are there any plans for the categories going forward? Are we going to be using the same ones as in the heats?

Because looking forward, if the competition is going forward as I think it will, and everything is played right, it should be possible for the finalists to have gone through all 15 of the original categories between them without overlap.

 

[pipaluk]

I really wish everyone would not keep saying Beauval was lucky, compared to inner city zoos most of its enclosures were always going to win. It came through the toughest group of the lot by some distance, only Frankfurt was rubbish in that group, but one prominent member managed to be the only member to vote against Beauval in that and did in every single round!!! Beauval is comfortably a top 10 zoo in Europe on collection and exhibitry, people need to accept that !
Easily ahead of Cologne, Stuttgart, ZSL, the Belgian zoos, Paris, Vienna.....
For me Better than Chester too.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

And another divisive zoo with a number of outdated exhibits (Stuttgart) progressed

Of the zoos that are left, 9 are consistently rated as amidst the best on the continent.....Somehow Stuttgart squeezed through.

I'm getting the impression that despite not having visited the collection, you hold Stuttgart in some disregard

BTW, sorry if this has been answered already, but are there any plans for the categories going forward? Are we going to be using the same ones as in the heats?

Because looking forward, if the competition is going forward as I think it will, and everything is played right, it should be possible for the finalists to have gone through all 15 of the original categories between them without overlap.

As a friend of mine is fond of saying, "excellent question, well-presented, next please"

Throwing a few ideas about, but not locking anything in yet!

I really wish everyone would not keep saying Beauval was lucky

Thing is, as the figures I provided above show, Beauval really *was* lucky as it progressed purely due to a single vote in a match it was uninvolved-with, and within the group only Frankfurt scored worse overall. By definition, if a collection is only prevented from going out of the competition by a tiny shift in circumstances entirely unconnected to it's own performance, that IS luck.

 

[Panda_Fan]

As noted above, had progression been determined by overall match score rather than win count, the final result would have been rather different - and one result in particular very much demonstrates the truth in my repeated assertion that every single vote can and *does* make a difference, and moreover provides a very good early contender for both the "unluckiest competitor" and "luckiest competitor" titles.

Again, those collections which have progressed to the next round are marked in bold:

1. Prague 72.2370%
2. Tierpark Berlin 69.4470%
3. Wroclaw 59.6364%
4. Zoo Berlin 58.7704%
5. Burgers 57.1860%
6. Chester 56.6328%
7. Antwerp 56.5696%
8. Vienna 55.9326%
9. Cologne 53.7420%
10. Stuttgart 53.7330%
11. Leipzig 53.2482%
12. Paris 52.2426%
13. ZSL 51.5042%
14. Beauval 51.2218%
15. Zurich 50.9392%
16. Basel 44.8452%
17. Plzen 43.8750%
18. Nuremberg 40.3564%
19. Budapest 39.6180%
20. Pairi Daiza 39.3404%
21. Artis 39.2866%
22. Zagreb 38.1556%
23. Copenhagen 33.9501%
24. Frankfurt 27.7754%

Put quite simply, Cologne drops out despite having fared better than four collections which progress, whilst Beauval (which competed in the same league to boot) progresses despite having fared worse than two collections which did not a result which can be laid solely on the fact that during the Cologne vs Burgers match, @Kalaw voted 4:1 in favour of the latter collection and @EliasNys switched from a 3:2 Cologne vote to a 3:2 Burgers vote during the final hours of the match. If *either* of these had not occurred, or had been reverted before the end of the match, Cologne would have progressed and Beauval would have dropped out.

More thoughts (and bonus matches whilst I travel) to follow, but in the meantime here is a rather interesting photograph I took last night whilst looking for wild eagle owls in a cemetery north of Hamburg, with significant relevance to a collection I'm increasingly thinking should have been included in the initial bracket rather than Budapest or Copenhagen!

View attachment 782843

Quite happy that my two favourites from this competition (Burgers and Stuttgart) have moved on. If I'm being honest, I never knew about Suttgart until It appeared at it's first match. It's increible how this institution balances both being and incredible botanical garden and having a great collection. I do think that some exhibits need to be changed, but I've been told they're working on it. And it's a plus that I enjoy historical zoos.
It's also exciting to see that even if the institution isn't in the match, it can get eliminated by a vote of another match. Sad that Cologne had to go, but maybe it's Stuttgart turn to be the dark horse of this match! One can only guess!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

As promised, after a short break I've got a few bonus matches for fun planned before we resume the Cup in earnest on my return from an interrail trip around the continent all revolve around various "what if" scenarios relating to categories, leagues and competitors.

The first two will look at whether the categories in the final two League C matches, had the random selection gone the other way around, would have led to Cologne progressing at the expense of Berlin, both progressing at the expense of Beauval, or the status quo remaining as it ended up in reality:

European (Tea)Cup - Bonus Match 1 - Zoo Berlin vs Burgers

European (Tea)Cup - Bonus Match 2 - Zoo Berlin vs Cologne

Incidentally, I post these threads from the Polish-Lithuanian borderlands, having spent much of the past week in the Baltic States!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I've been back from my month-long trip around northern and eastern Europe for a fortnight now, and reckon I'll soon be mentally and physically recovered enough to start this thread back up in earnest in the meantime, I've got the results of the two bonus matches looking at how differently League C could have gone had a single pair of category-allocations gone in the other direction, and three more "just for fun" matches to unveil!

Firstly, a reminder of the "canonical" results of League C, with progression determined solely by the number of matches won, with no tie-break situations wherein the actual percentage score could come into play (although I will also provide these below for comparative purposes)

1. Zoo Berlin 4/5 - 58.7704%
2. Burgers 4/5 - 57.1860%
3. Beauval 3/5 - 51.2218%
4. Cologne 2/5 - 53.7420%
5. ZSL 2/5 - 51.5042%
6. Frankfurt 0/5 - 27.7754%

And now the result of the two "just for fun" matches:

Zoo Berlin vs Cologne - ECTOTHERMS

Zoo Berlin - 32/65 points - 49.231%
Cologne - 33/65 points - 50.769%

Zoo Berlin vs Burgers - AFRICA

Zoo Berlin - 41/65 points - 63.077%
Burgers - 24/65 points - 36.921%

With the caveat that it is likely more people would have participated in the matches had they occurred within the "official" Cup, and therefore the results and percentages would have likely been a bit different, if these had been the results of the official matches between these collections the final rankings for League C would have been as follows:

1. Burgers 4/5 - 56.0702%
2. Zoo Berlin 3/5 - 56.9416%
3. Cologne 3/5 - 56.0862%
4. Beauval 3/5 - 51.2218%
5. ZSL 2/5 - 51.5042%
6. Frankfurt 0/5 - 27.7754%

.....which would have been a fascinating result on multiple levels; because of the fact it would have entailed a three-way tie for progression resolved by overall score percentage, because even in this iteration of League C we would have seen a higher-scoring collection being ranked lower due to win/loss ratio, and most of all because it would have meant all three progressing collections were within spitting-distance of one another score-wise!

All of this really does go to show the power of luck and happenstance in the Cup - four things were required for Beauval to progress:

• Someone (I never worked out who) switched from 3:2 Cologne to 3:2 Beauval in the relevant match.
• @EliasNys switched from 3:2 Cologne to 3:2 Burgers in *that* match at the very last minute.
• @Kalaw switched their vote from 3:2 Burgers to 4:1 Burgers earlier in the same match.
• The final two match categories were assigned as Africa and then Ectotherms rather than the reverse.

If *any* of these had not happened, Beauval would have dropped out and Cologne would have progressed!

In the fullness of time, we shall see whether Beauval can continue to be so lucky but in the meantime, three more "just for fun" matches!

European (Tea)Cup - Bonus Match 3 - Zurich vs Burgers

European (Tea)Cup - Bonus Match 4 - Pairi Daiza vs Beauval

European (Tea)Cup - Bonus Match 5 - ZSL vs Nuremberg

Each of these - as you might have guessed - revolve around giving collections which might have been expected to progress further but fell during the first round a chance for glory, with categories in which they are strong but rivals which *also* excel in these areas. Given the added complexity, these matches will last for five days to allow more time for discussion and debate

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Despite the fact that a fair number of people complained about the fact that Zurich and Pairi Daiza dropped out of the Cup at the first hurdle, I was somewhat disappointed that the general interest and participation level in the bonus matches remained low - even after I increased the overall duration of the matches to allow for more discussion. This *may* somewhat explain why neither collection was able to secure a consolation victory.

Pairi Daiza vs Beauval - ASIA, AFRICA and ISLANDS

Pairi Daiza - 24/50 points - 48.000%
Beauval - 26/50 points - 52.000%

Zurich vs Burgers - TROPICAL FORESTS, ECTOTHERMS and BIRDS

Zurich - 32/70 points - 45.714%
Burgers - 38/70 points - 54.286%

ZSL vs Nuremberg - TEMPERATE FORESTS, GRASSLAND AND DESERT, and MOUNTAINS AND POLES

ZSL - 21/55 points - 38.182%
Nuremberg - 34/55 points - 61.818%

I rather hope that this is purely a result of the fact that the matches didn't "count" rather than an indication that overall interest in the Cup has waned as a result of the intermission since the first rounds ended.... but we shall see, as I intend to start the next rounds tomorrow!

BARTLETT LEAGUE (E)

Chester
Paris (Zoo / MdP)
Vienna
Zoo Berlin
Burgers
Beauval

SCLATER LEAGUE (F)

Prague
Wroclaw
Antwerp and Planckendael
Tierpark Berlin
Leipzig
Stuttgart

As previously discussed, League E comprises the victors of Leagues A and C, and similarly League F comprises the victors of Leagues B and D. However, collections which have already faced-off against one another will not undergo rematches, and as a result there will be a total of 9 matches taking place in each league.

Hopefully by posting this now, I will get people's attention far enough in advance to ensure as many of our first-round participants take part once again as possible!

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

I mean, personally, I would have been tempted to just make sure to have rematches assigned to different categories rather than removing them completely (so, for example, making sure that Zoo Berlin vs Beauval was anything other than Hoofstock), but I'm looking forward to all this regardless.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

The first two matches are up:

European (Tea)Cup - League E - Paris Zoo & Menagerie vs Beauval

European (Tea)Cup - League F - Tierpark Berlin vs Antwerp & Planckendael

Enjoy!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

The first batch of results from the next round are in:

League E - Paris vs Beauval - WATER

Paris - 34/70 points - 48.571%
Beauval - 36/70 points - 51.429%

League F - Tierpark Berlin vs Antwerp and Planckendael - CARNIVORES

Tierpark Berlin - 78/100 points - 78.000%
Antwerp / Planckendael - 22/100 points - 22.000%

The next pair of matches look likely to be pretty vibrant and active ones:

European (Tea)Cup - League E - Chester vs Zoo Berlin

European (Tea)Cup - League F - Wroclaw vs Tierpark Berlin

I very much hope to be proven correct on this account!

 

[Kalaw]

I feel as though the KMDA have been quietly underperforming quite a bit this tournament. They advanced by beating three far weaker zoos, but took heavy batterings to Wrocław and Prague which carry over whilst the three victories do not. This is another very heavy defeat, which means the most wins they can now get is two and their percentages are not looking too good. This result all but guarantees their elimination.

 

[remar]

I feel as though the KMDA have been quietly underperforming quite a bit this tournament.

To be fair, none of the two zoos would have a chance, if they would try it solo. But indeed, there are categories where the duo can beat every other zoo at the continent.

 

[Kalaw]

To be fair, none of the two zoos would have a chance, if they would try it solo. But indeed, there are categories where the duo can beat every other zoo at the continent.

Which do you think those are?

 

[pipaluk]

I feel as though the KMDA have been quietly underperforming quite a bit this tournament. They advanced by beating three far weaker zoos, but took heavy batterings to Wrocław and Prague which carry over whilst the three victories do not. This is another very heavy defeat, which means the most wins they can now get is two and their percentages are not looking too good. This result all but guarantees their elimination.

They would not have stood a chance in the group with Berlin/Burgers/Beauval/Cologne/ZSL

 

[remar]

KDMA has the largest ape collection and with Amahoro probably the most exclusive individual of any European zoo right now. Therefore i would say tropical forests, Africa and primates are categories where they are a serious opponent for every other collection. For sure they have (way) more to offer than the apes in these categories.