Zoochat (Tea)Cup 2025

TeaLovingDave said:
I honestly didn't expect Prague to do anywhere near as well as it did - I thought it stood a chance of being the victor, but suspected it would be a close-run thing
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@TeaLovingDave thank you one more time for the energy you are investing in this game!

I think that in the current format Prague had one big advantage. Their collection and choice of exhibits are very rich and they managed to compensate their flaws with quantity. The lack of Aquarium for example (since there were no separate category) was easily covered by the Wetlands. Same time we should acknowledge their newly finished projects - Darwin Crater, Gorilla Reserve, Mongolian zone, Rakos Pavilion and many more smaller upgrades and additions. The new Polar Bear complex is also under construction.

We also tend to judge Zoos like Berlin, Beauval and Cologne bit harsher than they deserve. Berlin also made significant progress since Corona and they always will be among favourites for me.

Yes, Beauval landshaft design could be better, but when it comes to exhibit space, animal welfare, conservation, education and collection they can face any competitor around the world.

I am not surprised by the Tierpark Berlin'a possition as well. If the Elephant House was ready they had a chance to win, imo. The Great Apes is more of detractor than promoter for the big players, due to very high expectations. Tp could benefit of not having any. Their Primate collection is great nevertheless. Same aplies for Lions probably.

I also believe that it will be great if we start discussing the Non-western zoos in the context of the World ZooChat Cup. I recently visited few zoos in Asia and can say that Shanghai, Al Ain or Khao Kheow will be very hard to beat in the current format :)
 
twilighter said:
I also believe that it will be great if we start discussing the Non-western zoos in the context of the World ZooChat Cup. I recently visited few zoos in Asia and can say that Shanghai, Al Ain or Khao Kheow will be very hard to beat in the current format :)
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This is one of the other factors which makes a World Zoochat Cup tricky, of course - there are bound to be plenty of zoological collections which a) are excellent and would deserve inclusion within such a Cup but which b) have been visited by relatively few members of the forum, and therefore would fall into the same difficulties as collections such as Zagreb and Copenhagen did this time round if those members who *have* visited did not participate.

Another issue is that of balance - although I combined certain zoological collections which fall under a single management umbrella this time round, I felt it best to keep the two Berlin collections distinct to avoid the creation of an unfairly-powerful behemoth. However, this problem would be magnified tenfold where the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, the Wildlife Conservation Society, and most of all the Mandai Wildlife Group are concerned - in the case of the latter, if the Mandai collections were to be included as a single entity I suspect a lot of people would vote for them automatically without paying any heed to factors such as exhibit quality, conservation and so forth purely due to the sheer size and scope of the animal collection overall.

As a result, even before I put those plans on the back burner I was having serious difficulty whittling down the candidates into a solid 24-collection lineup whilst maintaining balance and a relatively even geographic spread!

I'd be interested to hear how people would resolve this dilemma, and hear any proposals for an international set of 24 collections :)

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In the meantime, let's get on with the Head-to-Head Prototype matches, starting with a reminder of the results of the two matches which are being carried over:

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Zoo Berlin vs Tierpark Berlin - LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN

Zoo Berlin - 52/105 points - 49.524%
Tierpark Berlin - 53/105 points - 50.476%

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Chester vs Prague - GRASSLAND AND DESERT

Chester - 36/95 points - 37.895%
Prague - 59/95 points - 62.105%

...and now the first two matches. Going forward from here I'll be randomly-selecting categories to spread them out a little, but to start off we will have a Water and Wetlands twofer in order to give all four collections their chance to prove themselves in a category which (as @CrashMegaraptor noted) mostly popped up in the lower echelons of the Cup:

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Chester vs Prague (Water and Wetlands)

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Tierpark Berlin vs Zoo Berlin (Water and Wetlands)

The general format of the matches is as usual; hopefully, as I noted previously, the fact these collections are popular, well-documented and prolifically visited will encourage a high level of discussion and participation - and remember that even if you don't feel comfortable voting, one can still post opinions, thoughts and questions to provoke further discussion!
 
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TeaLovingDave said:
This is one of the other factors which makes a World Zoochat Cup tricky, of course - there are bound to be plenty of zoological collections which a) are excellent and would deserve inclusion within such a Cup but which b) have been visited by relatively few members of the forum, and therefore would fall into the same difficulties as collections such as Zagreb and Copenhagen did this time round if those members who *have* visited did not participate.

Another issue is that of balance - although I combined certain zoological collections which fall under a single management umbrella this time round, I felt it best to keep the two Berlin collections distinct to avoid the creation of an unfairly-powerful behemoth. However, this problem would be magnified tenfold where the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, the Wildlife Conservation Society, and most of all the Mandai Wildlife Group are concerned - in the case of the latter, if the Mandai collections were to be included as a single entity I suspect a lot of people would vote for them automatically without paying any heed to factors such as exhibit quality, conservation and so forth purely due to the sheer size and scope of the animal collection overall.

As a result, even before I put those plans on the back burner I was having serious difficulty whittling down the candidates into a solid 24-collection lineup whilst maintaining balance and a relatively even geographic spread!

I'd be interested to hear how people would resolve this dilemma, and hear any proposals for an international set of 24 collections :)
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Shortlist 24 leading World Zoos is a monumental task itself! We probably need at least 32 format and quota system.
For example:
13 Europe
9 North America
5 Asia
2 South & Central America
2 Oceania
1 Africa

Than people vote and choose for each Geographic zone from a list of 40-50. It can be limited finalists by country as well, as only exception being USA.

San Diego, New York and Berlin can be divided to separate entities probably, but Singapore is a bit special case. I am not sure what is the right answer here.
 
@TeaLovingDave Thank you for utilizing your time and energy on this project and it's been exciting to follow along. Congratulations to Prague Zoo on the win!

I too would love the idea of a true World ZooChat Cup, featuring a selection of zoos from across the globe. The outlier would be Singapore, as the Mandai Wildlife Reserve complex of 5 zoos is tremendous and would likely easily win due to the size and breadth of the animal collection, and I can assure you that the exhibit quality is for the most part excellent and the conservation focus (more than 50 projects) is exemplary according to many individuals I've met within the industry. It might be best to only include Singapore Zoo by itself, as the 5 zoos combined would likely demolish anyone.

How about something like this, keeping in mind that I've aimed for zoos with well-rounded collections. 13 from Europe, 8 from North America, 7 from Asia, 2 from Oceania, 1 from Africa and 1 from South America. That equals 32 slots and in reality most of the zoos pick themselves. The one nation that seems most conspicuous by its absence is Japan, but I couldn't decide if Ueno, Tama or Zoorasia would bump any facility from the list below.

Beauval Zoo - France
Berlin Tierpark - Germany
Berlin Zoo - Germany
Burgers' Zoo - Netherlands
Chester Zoo - England
Cologne Zoo - Germany
Leipzig Zoo - Germany
Pairi Daiza - Belgium
Plzen Zoo - Czech. Rep.
Prague Zoo - Czech. Rep.
Vienna Zoo - Austria
Wroclaw Zoo - Poland
Zurich Zoo - Switzerland

Bronx Zoo - USA
Columbus Zoo - USA
Denver Zoo - USA
Omaha's Henry Doorly Zoo - USA
Saint Louis Zoo - USA
San Diego Zoo - USA
San Diego Zoo Safari Park - USA
Zoo Miami - USA

Al Ain Zoo - UAE
Beijing Zoo - China
Khao Kheow Open Zoo - Thailand
Negara Zoo - Malaysia
Shanghai Zoo - China
Singapore Zoo - Singapore
Taipei Zoo - Taiwan (officially part of China)

Melbourne Zoo - Australia
Taronga Zoo - Australia

Johannesburg Zoo - South Africa

Temaiken Bioparque - Argentina
 
I suggest you scrap the geographic categories or bar zoos from competing in their own region otherwise some will be ridiculously one sided
 
If you @TeaLovingDave aim for a smaller thing, i would also like to see a similar cup with Europes major aquariums :rolleyes:

Regarding @snowleopard list i would recommend to go with Stuttgart instead of Leipzig, as a result of the now finished cup. And given the fact how Plzen and Pairi Daiza failed i'm not sure if these two should be there too. (Maybe a fifth german collection with Leipzig or one of the Japanese zoos?)
 
pipaluk said:
I suggest you scrap the geographic categories or bar zoos from competing in their own region otherwise some will be ridiculously one sided
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You can still include some geographic areas I think, for example africa and south america would still work fine. For the others, there could be a "native species" category, where only species from that continent are eligible. There could also be more categories like a theming, rarities, plants etc category. And you still have the biome based and taxonomy based categories ofc. So I also see a world zoochat cup work out, but I think some time needs to pass before another cup starts, so interest and interaction is high when the cup starts again. Although on a worldwide scale, I doubt lack of discussion is going to be much of an issue.
 
twilighter said:
Shortlist 24 leading World Zoos is a monumental task itself! We probably need at least 32 format and quota system.
For example:
13 Europe
9 North America
5 Asia
2 South & Central America
2 Oceania
1 Africa
Click to expand...

snowleopard said:
How about something like this, keeping in mind that I've aimed for zoos with well-rounded collections. 13 from Europe, 8 from North America, 7 from Asia, 2 from Oceania, 1 from Africa and 1 from South America. That equals 32 slots and in reality most of the zoos pick themselves.
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Recall that per my previous statements, if I feel up to continuing with the International portion of the ZooChat Cup at some point it wouldn't include European collections in any case :p as that side of things has been resolved and the champion awaits its rival!

As I already noted, one of the issues with attempting a comprehensive geographic spread (and thereby mandating that at least one Latin American and African collection would *have* to be included in the list of competitors, for instance) is that the problem of people refusing to participate because they have no direct experience of the collections in question, or because only one or two people are posting their own opinions and experiences, would be even more acute than it was during the opening rounds of this Cup.

I suspect that the only viable solution is to omit those collections which - although they may well be excellent and theoretically capable of going far - carry too high a risk of triggering this problem, even if this means including collections which are less "impressive" but higher-profile. For instance, as I have already remarked elsewhere on a number of occasions, if I were to run the European rounds afresh with greater awareness of this problem, I would almost certainly omit collections such as Copenhagen, Budapest and even Zagreb in favour of collections such as Hamburg, Munich or the RZSS duo.

For what it's worth, this is roughly as far as I got with my shortlist before I dropped my initial plans:

League 1

Bronx
Taronga Conservation Society
(+4)

League 2

San Diego Zoo
Zoos Victoria
(+4)

League 3

San Diego Zoo Safari
(+5)

League 4

Singapore (scope TBD)
(+5)

---

To be randomly assigned to League:

Columbus
Henry Doorly
St Louis
Ueno
Taipei
Beijing
(+6)
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I do like the suggestion from @remar that a mini-Cup focused on European aquariums would be a fun diversion at some point - although it raises some interesting questions regarding scope!
 
I’m a bit late because I’ve been travelling, but thank you so much TLD for taking the time to host this, as it has been such great fun over the last eight months or so.

Personally, I think a World Cup featuring a multitude of European and non-European zoos would be great fun, and will also no doubt have better participation numbers with multiple inter-continental games between zoos that are very familiar with enthusiasts, given how many North American and Australian members there are. Asian and African zoos are a little less well-documented, though.

An aquarium cup would be amazing as a smaller endeavour but I have no clue how you’d decided the categories!
 
As I hoped, the inaugural two matches were a bit more lively - hopefully this continues to be the case:

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Zoo Berlin vs Tierpark Berlin - WATER AND WETLANDS

Zoo Berlin - 71/105 points - 67.619%
Tierpark Berlin - 34/105 points - 32.381%

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Chester vs Prague - WATER AND WETLANDS

Chester - 40/85 points - 47.059%
Prague - 45/85 points - 52.941%

The next two matches should be interesting ones I think:

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Tierpark Berlin vs Zoo Berlin (Carnivores)

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Chester vs Prague (Islands)

You have three days to get your collective teeth into them!
 
Both matches were a lot quieter than I hoped, but still produced a decent amount of conversation:

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Zoo Berlin vs Tierpark Berlin - CARNIVORES

Zoo Berlin - 37/80 points - 46.250%
Tierpark Berlin - 43/80 points - 53.750%

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Chester vs Prague - ISLANDS

Chester - 46/85 points - 54.118%
Prague - 39/85 points - 45.882%

Hopefully the next two rounds will pick up a little steam:

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Tierpark Berlin vs Zoo Berlin (Hoofstock)

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Chester vs Prague (Primates)

More importantly, I hope you all enjoy them :)
 
I do think I would be more likely to participate in a ZooChat World Cup than a European-focused one like this. While I do generally shy away from matches where I have not visited any of the zoos (which is all of them for a European cup and most of them in a world cup, presumably), there's just something about a "greatest of all time" kind of vibe that is generally more attractive to me. Not sure if this is the case for others but that's my perspective.
 
Couple of thoughts/ideas:

1) Time of year is undoubtedly going to play a role in how much participation the competition receives. I know that ZooChat is a global community, but with much of that membership living in the Northern Hemisphere in Europe and North America specifically, the colder months are almost undoubtedly going to see greater participation as people are inside more and killing time on their phones/computers. I think we saw this in this iteration of the cup as participation was much stronger towards the beginning of it in the months of January/February and then started to wain as we got into March (often seen as Spring Break time for schools here in the US) and further into spring/summer. Speaking from my own personal experience this holds true and I definitely had a much harder time keeping up as I became busier during these months. Granted fatigue is also going to play a role no matter when it is. Perhaps others have a completely different experience/opinion, but I would propose that October-March may be a more ideal time to host one of these competitions in order to see more participation throughout.

2) An idea to consider for the future, is what about trying to line up people who have actually visited the zoos for each round of the competition to present a sort of "opening argument/overview" for each zoo instead of hoping somebody does for each round? I understand this would take even more coordination on behalf of the organizer in finding people willing to do it, but I think it would be a way to try to spread out the labor that these often long and time consuming posts take. Often, the same people were doing it over and over, and if those few people didn't no one did. I think this way, the organizer can potentially bring in people who haven't participated in the cup to share their thoughts/opinions therefore getting more people across the forum involved and it would also be away to prompt the discussion at the beginning of matches. Often in these competitions, I would be happy to provide such an overview for a zoo I have visited, but I often did not have the time when the that particular round started to do so. The people presenting the opening arguments could have some prior warning (perhaps a week?) to prepare and space out the time. I also had only been to one of the collections in this particular competition. (Just to make it clear using the Head to Head rounds as an example. You could have one individual prepare an opening argument for the Berlin Zoo's merits on Hoofstock and then another individual prepare one for the Tierpark.) As I said, this would definitely require more coordination in a process that is already a large undertaking, and it would require a few people having some knowledge of upcoming rounds (hopefully, they would be willing to not share prior to these rounds), but I think it could be a good way to get discussion going for each round as others could then build off what was shared or provide counterpoints.

Anyways, just a couple thoughts I've had, but overall a job well done @TeaLovingDave and thank you for coordinating it all.
 
Less discussion than I had hoped, but a minor boost in overall participation:

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Tierpark Berlin vs Zoo Berlin - HOOFSTOCK

Tierpark Berlin - 57/95 points - 60.000%
Zoo Berlin - 38/95 points - 40.000%

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Chester vs Prague - PRIMATES

Chester -- 57/95 points - 60.000%
Prague - 38/95 points - 40.000%

I think there is definitely plenty of scope for more discussion within the next two rounds:

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Tierpark Berlin vs Zoo Berlin (Miscellaneous Mammals)

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Chester vs Prague (Asia)

We shall reconvene in three days!
 
One match was disappointingly quiet, but the other one provoked rather a lot of discussion (albeit nowhere near as many votes as I would have hoped) so things remained pretty engaging:

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Tierpark Berlin vs Zoo Berlin - MISCELLANEOUS MAMMALS

Tierpark Berlin - 36/60 points - 60.000%
Zoo Berlin - 24/60 points - 40.000%

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Chester vs Prague - ASIA

Chester -- 45/95 points - 47.368%
Prague - 50/95 points - 52.632%

Lets see what you all make of the next pair of matches - and if you are lurking, please do participate in discussions even if you decide not to vote!

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Tierpark Berlin vs Zoo Berlin (Primates)

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Chester vs Prague (Latin America and the Caribbean)

Enjoy :)
 
Another interesting pair of matches, with both ending up with more heavily-weighted results than I expected:

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Tierpark Berlin vs Zoo Berlin - PRIMATES

Tierpark Berlin - 52/90 points - 57.778%
Zoo Berlin - 38/90 points - 42.222%

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Chester vs Prague - LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN

Chester -- 61/105 points - 58.095%
Prague - 44/105 points - 41.905%

The next two should be even more interesting, I reckon:

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Tierpark Berlin vs Zoo Berlin (Tropical Forest)

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Chester vs Prague (Africa)

I hope you all enjoy them :)
 
One match which was *significantly* quieter than I expected, and another which resulted in a fair bit of interesting discussion:

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Tierpark Berlin vs Zoo Berlin - TROPICAL FOREST

Tierpark Berlin - 23/55 points - 41.818%
Zoo Berlin - 32/55 points - 58.182%

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Chester vs Prague - AFRICA

Chester -- 55/105 points - 52.381%
Prague - 50/105 points - 47.619%

Hopefully the next two result in a decent amount of discussion and debate!

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Tierpark Berlin vs Zoo Berlin (Temperate Forest and Woodland))

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Chester vs Prague (Birds)

Enjoy!
 
Another very quiet match paired-off with a hotly-debated and very active match:

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Tierpark Berlin vs Zoo Berlin - TEMPERATE FOREST AND WOODLAND

Tierpark Berlin - 39/70 points - 55.714%
Zoo Berlin - 31/70 points - 44.286%

HEAD-TO-HEAD PROTOTYPE: Chester vs Prague - BIRDS

Chester -- 41/105 points - 39.048%
Prague - 64/105 points - 60.952%

The next pair of matches include one which has the potential to be very interesting indeed, given prior context:

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Tierpark Berlin vs Zoo Berlin (Grassland and Desert)

European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Chester vs Prague (CARNIVORES)

Enjoy!
 
CrashMegaraptor said:
It seems to me that Chester vs Prague is getting a LOT more discussion than the Berlin duo...
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Indeed, something which somewhat surprises me given the fact that both Berlin collections saw plenty of discussion during the main body of the Cup - so it isn't as if people are holding back due to having never visited!
 
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