Zoos with the rarest / most endangered freshwater turtles

Jarne said:
For the nile soft-shell turtle, I suspect it's hard to obtain them but the current tank they are in also doesn't have a true land area (there is a rock just below water level that he/she can rest on) so they can't lay eggs either way. It's the same problem with many fly-river turtle tanks, even if zoos kept compatible pairs they would need a land-area to lay their eggs which is too often not provided. Even for turtles now considered common like matamata, this might not remain the case. Currently matamata are exported as eggs from their home countries, but with the possible split into multiple species it's questionable wether this will remain so easy. If those new species do turn out to be endangered and this egg-trade stops, you will end up with an unsustainable population of endangered turtles.
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Yes, that is a very problematic thing in terms of enclosure design, I see what you mean and perhaps this is something that zoos need to work on in the future ?

Maybe an additional problem too is that zoos could be concerned that by breeding these animals they will end up with lots of hatchling turtles that it would be hard to arrange to find homes for in other zoos ?

Also, that is a very interesting point regarding the possible species split with the matamata and you are right to suggest that this could have some quite difficult consequences for freshwater turtle conservation.
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
I have seen both of these species housed with crocodilians and fish but I haven't seen them ever housed with snakes. Which snake species and where have you seen these species kept in mixed enclosures with ?
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Matamata have been kept with green anaconda in Paris.

Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
I didn't know that about mata-matas or fly river turtles at all, it is quite odd to think that zoos would import these species from the wild regularly and I find it quite hard to fathom because they are hardly very popular or "crowd favourites".
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When looking at the number of zoos keeping them they are actually quite popular, I suspect this is because of their more funny appearance.
 
Jarne said:
Matamata have been kept with green anaconda in Paris.


When looking at the number of zoos keeping them they are actually quite popular, I suspect this is because of their more funny appearance.
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I had no idea about that, this seems like a very strange mix and I haven't seen it before.

Yes, I mean they could be popular in reptiles houses and aquariums but I'm not sure that they have the same crowd pull or appeal as a meerkat or an Asian short clawed otter.
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
Maybe an additional problem too is that zoos could be concerned that by breeding these animals they will end up with lots of hatchling turtles that it would be hard to arrange to find homes for in other zoos ?
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With long-lived species like turtles overbreeding is indeed rather easy if you have a few very successful breeders, but you can always shake eggs when you have too many. However a problem does seem to be that because some superbreeders breed so much that the pressure to breed for other zoos is very low. In the long term this is be very dangerous to genetic sustainability and in the short term to turtle welfare. The huge groups of turtles (which can be very stressful and often cause much aggression) aren't just driven by esthetics but also by over-availability of some species.
 
Jarne said:
However a problem does seem to be that because some superbreeders breed so much that the pressure to breed for other zoos is very low. In the long term this is be very dangerous to genetic sustainability and in the short term to turtle welfare.
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I think for turtles, crocodilians, some large fish, flamingos etc, animals should be moved to zoos which are successful in breeding, produce one or few clutches, and then moved to less successful facilities.

Rotating animals between successful and less successful zoos is more practical and faster than every zoo starting breeding. Some zoos have especially good keepers, especially large exhibits and sometimes there are unclear factors. Otherwise, many individuals will probably never breed and genetic diversity and whole species might be lost.
 
Jurek7 said:
I think for turtles, crocodilians, some large fish, flamingos etc, animals should be moved to zoos which are successful in breeding, produce one or few clutches, and then moved to less successful facilities.

Rotating animals between successful and less successful zoos is more practical and faster than every zoo starting breeding. Some zoos have especially good keepers, especially large exhibits and sometimes there are unclear factors. Otherwise, many individuals will probably never breed and genetic diversity and whole species might be lost.
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I agree for the reptiles and large fish. However not breeding should not be an excuse for bad welfare. If a zoo needs excellent conditions to breed a species, non-breeding zoos should aspire to hold their animals in similar conditions (of-course without providing unnecessary things like nesting facilities or having separation exhibits).

When it comes to flamingo's b.t.w. (I know, off-topic), I'd say bad breeding results are rather a sign of bad husbandry. All zoos with decent sized groups in sunny aviaries breed well to my knowledge. If they breed extremely bad there, the right course of action is moving those individuals out and not moving in new individuals. The too successful zoos could then shake eggs.
 
Prague zoo has some common and some less seen species of freshwater turtles:

Annam leaf turtle (Mauremys annamensis) - breeding, extinct in the wild
Asian leaf turtle (Cyclemys dentata) - rescue animals from confiscation
Black marsh turtle (Siebenrockiella crassicollis) - rescue animals from confiscation
Black-breasted leaf turtle (Geoemyda spengleri) - breeding, confiscated animals
Brown roofed turtle (Kachuga smithii) - breeding
Chiapas giant musk turtle (Staurotypus salvinii)
Crowned river turtle (Hardella thurjii) - breeding
Cuban slider (Trachemys decussata) - breeding
Eastern black-bridged leaf turtle (Cyclemys pulchristriata) - rescue animals
Enigmatic leaf turtle (Cyclemys enigmatica) - natural breeding in tropical hall, rescue animals
European pond turtle (Emys orbicularis) - breeding, educational purposes (critically endangered in Czechia)
Giant Asian pond turtle (Heosemys grandis) - breeding, rescue animals, studbook keeper
Indian roofed turtle (Kachuga tecta) - juveniles
Malayan flat-shelled turtle (Notochelys platynota)
Malaysian giant pond turtle (Century Turtle) (Orlitia borneensis) - breeding, rescue animals, studbook keeper
McCord's snake-necked turtle (Chelodina mccordi)
New Guinea snapping turtle (Elseya novaeguineae)
Northern Australian snake-necked turtle (Chelodina oblonga)
Northern Vietnamese box turtle (Cuora galbinifrons galbinifrons)
Oldham's leaf turtle (Cyclemys oldhami)
Pig-nosed turtle (Carettochelys insculpta)
Red-bellied short-necked turtle (Emydura subglobosa)
Siebenrock’s snake-necked turtle (Chelodina siebenrocki)
South-east Asian box turtle (Cuora amboinensis) - breeding, rescue animals
Southern river terrapin (Batagur affinis) - breeding
Spiny hill turtle (Heosemys spinosa) - breeding, rescue animals
 
I agree that all zoos should try for the highest standard.

However, not every zoo has the modern exhibit, and modernization plans easily take 20 years or more. Also, finding out husbandry of 200+ species of turtles will take years where some species will die out or become too inbred. Also, does breeding really means finding good husbandry, or because the animals are at a better age, were more healthy before arriving to the zoo, or a pure chance factor? Without swapping animals we will never be sure whether husbandry guidelines are really good. Also, in practice, there are very few experts of some groups (experienced reptile breeders, bird specialists etc) and not every zoo can have one.

In the current practice, as you said - some zoos have proven breeding experience but animals with a breeding ban, in others animals will die non-breeding, taking away their genetic diversity. This way many species may go extinct in zoos.
 
Rotating turtles ( and tortoises ) between breeding and non-breeding zoos / aquariums sounds good but evenso I disagree with this praxis because its known that a lot of species simply need time to get used to a surtain enclosure and this can take sometimes 5 to 10 years !
If an animal which is living already 4 years in an eclosure without breeding but maybe will breed in its 5th year at this enclosure is moved to another zoo - how good this may be in breeding this species - its well possible that another 4 - 5 years are lost for this animals before it will ( maybe ) breed at this new zoo...
 
Jurek7 said:
I agree that all zoos should try for the highest standard.

However, not every zoo has the modern exhibit, and modernization plans easily take 20 years or more. Also, finding out husbandry of 200+ species of turtles will take years where some species will die out or become too inbred. Also, does breeding really means finding good husbandry, or because the animals are at a better age, were more healthy before arriving to the zoo, or a pure chance factor? Without swapping animals we will never be sure whether husbandry guidelines are really good. Also, in practice, there are very few experts of some groups (experienced reptile breeders, bird specialists etc) and not every zoo can have one.

In the current practice, as you said - some zoos have proven breeding experience but animals with a breeding ban, in others animals will die non-breeding, taking away their genetic diversity. This way many species may go extinct in zoos.
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It's true that in some cases it's difficult to determine what's needed for those species. However it's not like we don't already have a lot of knowledge about many turtles, it's also a matter of using it. And some things are fairly easy to change in future exhibit like group structure, humidity, temperature and mixed species. Species like arapaima, arowana, other turtles, crocodilians, aggressive cichlids, tigerfish, ... can be very dominating in exhibits and their aggressiveness can cause conflicts. Simply stop putting new turtles in such situations and you already improve things. Keeping aggressive solitary species like fly-river turtles in groups? Once again something very easy to change in future exhibits.

Of-course we can't expect every zoo to have decent exhibits right now, but sacrificing welfare for breeding programs is also not what zoos should strive to do. Brand new horrendous exhibits for reptiles, amphibians, fish and inverts are still being build. Information is available on so many species, you don't have to be an expert to use it. And for those species you need experts for, well let those species to the experts and have others keep some of the easier species.
 
Jarne said:
With long-lived species like turtles overbreeding is indeed rather easy if you have a few very successful breeders, but you can always shake eggs when you have too many. However a problem does seem to be that because some superbreeders breed so much that the pressure to breed for other zoos is very low. In the long term this is be very dangerous to genetic sustainability and in the short term to turtle welfare. The huge groups of turtles (which can be very stressful and often cause much aggression) aren't just driven by esthetics but also by over-availability of some species.
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Very good point @Jarne !

I agree and it is true that even with a captive breeding program for a critically endangered species of turtle there is a need to be realistic in terms of numbers being bred.

What I meant was more that other zoos perhaps would be unwilling to take young animals bred by a zoo into their own collection due to lack of space or lack of interest etc (just a guess really as this seems to be the case for many species regardless of taxa).

In an ideal world of course hatchlings would be primed for and eventually reintroduced back to the wild but this is difficult / made far more challenging given some of the dire situations facing freshwater turtles in their natural habitats.
 
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Jurek7 said:
I think for turtles, crocodilians, some large fish, flamingos etc, animals should be moved to zoos which are successful in breeding, produce one or few clutches, and then moved to less successful facilities.

Rotating animals between successful and less successful zoos is more practical and faster than every zoo starting breeding. Some zoos have especially good keepers, especially large exhibits and sometimes there are unclear factors. Otherwise, many individuals will probably never breed and genetic diversity and whole species might be lost.
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It sounds like an interesting idea for freshwater turtles in particular to be rotated I agree.

Jarne said:
I agree for the reptiles and large fish. However not breeding should not be an excuse for bad welfare. If a zoo needs excellent conditions to breed a species, non-breeding zoos should aspire to hold their animals in similar conditions (of-course without providing unnecessary things like nesting facilities or having separation exhibits).
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Very good point indeed about aspiring zoos to ensure decent husbandry conditions first, totally agree with you on that.
 
What I stated above is b.t.w. true for many non-mammalian or non-avian animals. As an aquarian I can say too many freshtanks are plain torture and stress chambers instead of decent living habitats. Saltwater tanks are slightly better on average (not illogical, those fish are also more expensive), but even there you see some very weird things. Some animals are simply too often seen as decorative objects and if they are eaten or die from illness or stress they are simply replaced, let alone that even a thought is given about breeding the species. Cause why would you breed the species if you can just get some frome that one zoo breeding them or from the wild. Even more saddening is that this is not only the case for common species but also for rare species like fly-river turtle, black-tip reef shark, yellow-spotted turtle and Aldabra giant tortoise.
 
Jarne said:
What I stated above is b.t.w. true for many non-mammalian or non-avian animals. As an aquarian I can say too many freshtanks are plain torture and stress chambers instead of decent living habitats. Saltwater tanks are slightly better on average (not illogical, those fish are also more expensive), but even there you see some very weird things. Some animals are simply too often seen as decorative objects and if they are eaten or die from illness or stress they are simply replaced, let alone that even a thought is given about breeding the species. Cause why would you breed the species if you can just get some frome that one zoo breeding them or from the wild. Even more saddening is that this is not only the case for common species but also for rare species like fly-river turtle, black-tip reef shark, yellow-spotted turtle and Aldabra giant tortoise.
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Do you think that this is often the case with freshwater turtles in zoos in that they are often seen as more as decoration for reptile houses or freshwater / crocodilian exhibits rather than as valued or prioritized for ex-situ conservation ?
 
Jurek7 said:
I agree that all zoos should try for the highest standard.

However, not every zoo has the modern exhibit, and modernization plans easily take 20 years or more. Also, finding out husbandry of 200+ species of turtles will take years where some species will die out or become too inbred. Also, does breeding really means finding good husbandry, or because the animals are at a better age, were more healthy before arriving to the zoo, or a pure chance factor? Without swapping animals we will never be sure whether husbandry guidelines are really good. Also, in practice, there are very few experts of some groups (experienced reptile breeders, bird specialists etc) and not every zoo can have one.

In the current practice, as you said - some zoos have proven breeding experience but animals with a breeding ban, in others animals will die non-breeding, taking away their genetic diversity. This way many species may go extinct in zoos.
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Yes, I agree that many zoos are behind the times in terms of modern exhibits and that this process of modernization will take many years to complete.

But I don't think the husbandry needs of freshwater turtles with regards to ensuring reproduction in captivity are as complicated to understand as other threatened taxonomic groups and I certainly don't think it would take as long as you say it would.

Furthermore, while I think that we will definitely lose some species of turtles to extinction in this century (that is sadly a given) I don't think that the challenge is unsurmountable to save a good few of these that are currently on the prescipice of extinction.

Certainly there is space and resources for turtles in zoos if these institutions allocate them space and resources and perhaps focus less on the megafauna "ABC's" and more on this group whose ex-situ conservation is probably actually far more economic / cost-effective anyway.

Once again, agree that rotation of species between zoos could be a good idea for freshwater turtles conservation.
 
vogelcommando said:
Rotating turtles ( and tortoises ) between breeding and non-breeding zoos / aquariums sounds good but evenso I disagree with this praxis because its known that a lot of species simply need time to get used to a surtain enclosure and this can take sometimes 5 to 10 years !
If an animal which is living already 4 years in an eclosure without breeding but maybe will breed in its 5th year at this enclosure is moved to another zoo - how good this may be in breeding this species - its well possible that another 4 - 5 years are lost for this animals before it will ( maybe ) breed at this new zoo...
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Great comment @vogelcommando !

Totally agree that it is often just a matter of time and adaption to an enclosure before breeding success can take place. Afterall, these are long lived animals and reptiles are far more sensitive than we often like to acknowledge.

We should take a far more long-term view to maintaining the individuals of a threatened species / neglected taxa in captivity (key to success in ex-situ in my opinion) rather than giving up when the going gets tough.

vogelcommando said:
Althrough not as large as I first had expected, also the Zoo of Cologne ( Köln - Germany ) has a nice turtle-collection with some real rare species :
Malayan painted river turtle
Keeled box turtle
Indochinese box turtle
Black-breasted leaf turtle ( has been bred at Cologne :) )
Vietnamese three-striped box turtle ( also bred at Cologne :) )
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Thanks for these by the way, it seems like they have a decent little collection of freshwater turtles.

My favourite of these would have to be the Malayan painted river turtle, beautiful large species and such a striking face with those vibrant colours.
 
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Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
Do you think that this is often the case with freshwater turtles in zoos in that they are often seen as more as decoration rather than as valued for ex-situ conservation ?
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Too often I'd say. This doesn't mean that every zoo does this or does it as often as others. Even a zoo with high standards like Antwerp when it comes to reptiles does make mistakes like the softshell turtle in an overstocked tank with highly aggressive cichlids and tigerfish or a slightly too large group of box turtles (they are a highly aggressive species). Burgers' enclosure are mostly good, though breeding of their yellow-spotted turtles hasn't happened (possibly because of the capybara or other species on the beach).With other turtles they however had excellent breeding results and they even build a more then suitable enclosure in the bush for another species (they bred in about a year). On the other hand there are multiple zoos where this is more the rule then the exception. Even some zoos where some species they do breed are housed excellently also keep putting other species in subpar enclosures. Pairi Daiza has both decent breeding with some species but also many enclosures where the turtles are no more then decoration.
 
Jarne said:
Too often I'd say. This doesn't mean that every zoo does this or does it as often as others. Even a zoo with high standards like Antwerp when it comes to reptiles does make mistakes like the softshell turtle in an overstocked tank with highly aggressive cichlids and tigerfish or a slightly too large group of box turtles (they are a highly aggressive species). Burgers' enclosure are mostly good, though breeding of their yellow-spotted turtles hasn't happened (possibly because of the capybara or other species on the beach).With other turtles they however had excellent breeding results and they even build a more then suitable enclosure in the bush for another species (they bred in about a year). On the other hand there are multiple zoos where this is more the rule then the exception. Even some zoos where some species they do breed are housed excellently also keep putting other species in subpar enclosures. Pairi Daiza has both decent breeding with some species but also many enclosures where the turtles are no more then decoration.
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Yes, I've definitely noticed a tendency to just put freshwater turtles in mixed species exhibits.

Though these kind of enclosures often look beautiful and engaging I have wondered sometimes whether it would simply be better to have them in their own enclosures and if they are endangered / of conservation concern to focus solely on breeding them.

Don't get me wrong, mixed species enclosures are great if they work out and they often do and if the turtle species being used in one of these is just a common species then why not ?

But with more endangered freshwater species whose breeding and overall commitment to husbandry is required it does seem like a bit of a waste of time and animals in my opinion.
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
Don't get me wrong, mixed species enclosures are great if they work out and if the turtle species being used is a common species then why not ?
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Stress, even for common species. I won't say that every mixed turtle enclosure is bad, but I'd wager that a lot of those large mixed exhibits with half a dozen turtle species are not only pools of turtles but also pools of stress. Keep them well or don't keep them at all is my moto.

Wether the species in that case is a surplus of a common species or a surplus of a rare species doesn't matter in my opinion. Spaces for surplus animals are needed for both. I'd prefer the rare species for conservation efforts actually if this means that other zoos with complete breeding facilities can breed. It's a waste of money to have every exhibit for turtles with a full nesting area, separation exhibits, behind the scenes rearing units etc. if that doesn't affect the direct welfare of the surplus animals. Those surplus spaces are also needed to keep the population breeding at a regular pace.
 
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